[markl]

EDIT:
OK, chill pill taken. I feel much better now

This post added nothing of value to the conversation and has been deleted.

 

[Ebonyks]

Markl, that's not a fair approach, that's mob justice.

I feel that, we as people should both, listen to the story of this "mystery person", and evaulate this situation on facts, not hear-say. I have no reason to believe many of the claims of actions taken by this fantasy person, because when i have asked for any proof that could prove or disprove this story, i have been shot down, as has the entire community. It's the equivilant of bringing someone to court, and only allowing the proscution to speak, and not providing evidence at the same time. It's irrelevant if the person in question did or did not commit the crimes that are being discussed, it simply runs contrary to the entire sense of justice instilled in many of us from an young age For example, i have no reason to believe that this mystery user, who signed up with multiple user names ever posed as a customer of their own products, unfairly advertising. I'm more than willing to look at any information which would support this claim, however, i have not been provided with any, so it is unfair for anyone to comment on this subject unless they have information which confirms or denies this.

So, while i am unable to provide evidence in this case to prove or disprove the guilt of this mystery person, given that they are just that, I feel we are judging them before the facts have been presented. Also, i would like apoligize to all of those head-fi'ers who have no clue what this discussion is about, i would love to provide spefics, but given that this is a "hypothethical situation", i am unable to

 

[radrd]

There are two sides to every story. I'm going to go out on a limb and guess that this mystery individual would have a different take on this story. Whether his take would be accurate or not, I have no idea, but it seems reasonable to hear both sides before riding out with tar and feathers...

 

[jpelg]

Quote:

Originally posted by Ebonyks So, while i am unable to provide evidence in this case to prove or disprove the guilt of this mystery person, given that they are just that, I feel we are judging them before the facts have been presented.

Well said, E.

While the details of the 'story' provided from the point of view of the 'web-site guy' may be technically accurate, they may be one-sided, and rather slanted as such. I will simply defer to the 'web-site guy' as it pertains to his particular website, and conduct my business dealings with the 'commercial interest' on my own terms.

 

[markl]

Yes, radrd and Ebonyks, you are right, there is another side to the story, and no, I don't have all the facts (one can assume only Jude and the un-named person do). Said Amp maker has his own web site, and is free to respond any way he likes, he also has a platform over at Headwize if he so wishes.

Walking into Head-Fi is like walking into someone's club house, in this case it's Jude's club house. The front door is open to anyone who wants to walk in and start talking to other people at the "party", so long as they are good guests and don't violate any of the posted rules of participation. However, if one person comes in and makes a mess, breaks the rules, or just plain rubs Jude the wrong way, Jude has the right to dis-invite them from coming back into *his* club-house, for any reason he wishes.

I'm sure there are plenty of people you can think of that you would rather not want to hang around with and wouldn't want in *your* house, due to whatever disagreements you have had in the past, whether you were right or wrong in those disputes, the bad vibes are there, and you are under no obligation to entertain that person in *your* home.

My point is, I know I would not be alone in being outraged and upset if due to this one individual Member, whatever his beef, Head-Fi had to be shut down permanently or even temporarily, due to our host's being reasonably unwilling to have to deal with expensive lawsuits from anyone with a gripe.

Being responsible for the curtailing, limiting, or removal of this web-site is not going to make you a very popular dude in the headphone community. IMO, this would not bode well for one's business. Threatening Head-Fi would not be "justice" for the thousands of members here who participate and have helped to build this site into what it is today.

EDIT: As a member with over 4000 posts here who has devoted a LOT of his free time and energy into the site, I can't help but feel some small sense of personal "ownership", maybe others feel the same way or can relate. When I see Head-Fi *potentially* being threatened, I feel threatened too by extension, and I'm getting emotional. I don't want anything to happen to Head-Fi, that's all! I am going to go and chill out for a bit. Later!

 

[00940]

I highly doubt anyone intended to sue anybody. It's too expensive to begin with, especially for a small amp maker and good luck to get a really positive results in front of a court on such an affair. "Case won, money lost". We're not speaking of big companies here, with tons of cash to spend on such affair.

Such threats are certainly unpleasant and foolish. I've an hard time however to believe they would have become reality.

 

[archosman]

Quote:

Originally posted by Ebonyks Markl, that's not a fair approach, that's mob justice. I feel that, we as people should both, listen to the story of this "mystery person", and evaulate this situation on facts, not hear-say.

It's none of our business...

Quote:

Originally posted by Ebonyks I have no reason to believe many of the claims of actions taken by this fantasy person, because when i have asked for any proof that could prove or disprove this story, i have been shot down, as has the entire community.

I don't feel shot down, and it's none of our business...

Quote:

Originally posted by Ebonyks It's the equivilant of bringing someone to court, and only allowing the proscution to speak, and not providing evidence at the same time. It's irrelevant if the person in question did or did not commit the crimes that are being discussed, it simply runs contrary to the entire sense of justice instilled in many of us from an young age For example, i have no reason to believe that this mystery user, who signed up with multiple user names ever posed as a customer of their own products, unfairly advertising.

There are no legal rules on how to run a website, and it's none of our business...


Quote:

Originally posted by Ebonyks I'm more than willing to look at any information which would support this claim, however, i have not been provided with any, so it is unfair for anyone to comment on this subject unless they have information which confirms or denies this.

It's none of your business...

Quote:

Originally posted by Ebonyks So, while i am unable to provide evidence in this case to prove or disprove the guilt of this mystery person, given that they are just that, I feel we are judging them before the facts have been presented. Also, i would like apoligize to all of those head-fi'ers who have no clue what this discussion is about, i would love to provide spefics, but given that this is a "hypothethical situation", i am unable to

Hmm. Maybe so, but it's none of our business...

 

[Wodgy]

It's a moot point anyway.... there's someone who's sending out PMs purporting to explain the mystery person's side of the story (at least I got one...). So both sides seem to be getting their air time.

 

[Rizumu]

archosman: If it was none of our business, jude wouldn't have posted this thread or left it open to discussion.

 

[Ebonyks]

archoman, with all due respect, where do you get off telling me what is, and what is not my busniess? I simply have a desire to understand the facts of this situation, and have had little in the way of evidence presented to me to support the claims made by several individauls in this thread.

Given the nature of a thread like will change people's opinion of a person on the forums, why are they not entitled to defend themselves? if you were in the situation of this mystery person, would you feel comfortable having others making claims about you, with no oppertunity to defend yourself, and have people insult an expressed desire to have an accurate-as-possible understanding of a situation?

I'm not pointing fingers at anyone here, nor should anyone else be, until we can at least establish some of what's been discussed here as true or false

 

[jude]

[size=xx-small] Quote:

Originally posted by Ebonyks ....I have no reason to believe many of the claims of actions taken by this fantasy person, because when i have asked for any proof that could prove or disprove this story, i have been shot down, as has the entire community....

[/size]Based on communications you and I have had, it seems pretty clear to me that you have a friend whose situation you interpret as similar enough to the story I've told that you're willing to assume it's about him. If you see it that way, it doesn't surprise me that you'd defend your friend. If I was in the situation of the web guy in the story, and, given the suggestions of legal action mentioned in the story, I don't think I'd share the "proof" you wanted with you anyway, especially if you were a friend of the commercial interest in the story. If that's not good enough for you, then that's not good enough for you. Like I said, I didn't expect everyone to enjoy this story.[size=xx-small] Quote:

Originally posted by 00940 I highly doubt anyone intended to sue anybody. It's too expensive to begin with, especially for a small amp maker and good luck to get a really positive results in front of a court on such an affair. "Case won, money lost". We're not speaking of big companies here, with tons of cash to spend on such affair. Such threats are certainly unpleasant and foolish. I've an hard time however to believe they would have become reality.

[/size]Well, I don't care how foolish or juvenile the commercial interest in the story is being -- if I was in the shoes of the web guy, I'd take it very seriously (ask any of our lawyer members here if they would, too). Maybe this was the commercial interest's juvenile way of trying to encourage dialogue -- I would consider this an awful way to go about it, and, again, still something that has to be taken very seriously. Assume the web guy in the story has been involved in lawsuits before, and knows just how very serious they are. Assume also that the moment one retains his lawyers for a lawsuit, the costs quickly escalate into the tens of thousands of dollars. Again, even if the overtures of legal action were a juvenile attempt by the commercial interest in the story to get the web guy to engage in dialogue with him, it's an idiotic way to go about it. I'd be very surprised if there was an attorney in our membership here who'd disagree with the web guy for taking it seriously. I would also assume the web guy's actions were at least based in part on professional advice from his counsel. I would also think that dealing with this type of BS with anyone in what is supposed to be something hobby-ish in nature -- and so feeling compelled to discuss it with counsel -- would be very frustrating for the web guy in the story.

Again, I don't expect everyone to enjoy this story, and I feel confident the web guy in the story probably wouldn't enjoy it much either.

 

[vwap]

Quote:

Originally posted by archosman it's none of our business...

Maybe so. However, what IS our business it to know what the truth is. If this supposed "story" was pointed toward a specific person or entity which many of the posters in this thread seem to think they've identified, but if the facts given above were false, this could feasibly have legal ramifications. There's already been a post above that alludes to not ordering from this supposed entity based on the accusations above. What IF the accusations above weren't true? (Just being the devil's advocate here).. While they are directed only toward a fictitious entity, it's obvious that people have translated the story to apply to specific real-life entities.

While I have no evidence to support either side, I think it should be considered that there's always another side to the story. It's very similar to the Sugano-san accusations. While he was eventually exhonerated from accusations of making up a product, people were questioning his claims... Where are the questions now?

In all my communication with Jude, he's been very courteous and they've all been very pleasant conversations, so I have no reason to dispute his account. However, everyone interprets things said and done differently, so perhaps said "mystery person" said some things that were interpreted differently from what the intent was, and acted upon as such...

But maybe not.

 

[Ebonyks]

Quote:

I don't think I'd share the "proof" you wanted with you anyway, especially if you were a friend of the commercial interest in the story. If that's not good enough for you, then that's not good enough for you.

I'm sorry, but when have you established myself a friend of the commerical intrest in this story? I have in no way, shape, or form engaged with any busniess of any sort with the individual in question. Furthermore, even i had, why should it matter? Why is head-fi as a community not entitled to hear what actual information you have to back your story, instead of just making what can be inferred as claims with no logical backing.

But, given that you've stated what you have, continuing this thread is pointless. Nothing in the way of anyone actually taking measures to listen to any other side of the story looks likely to occur, and more opposition jude's attitude of selective discrimation of companies (which is, on some level, his right to do as an owner of this website). At this point, it's just a discussion about who has more crediblity. My research implies that many of the claims that jude establishes are not accurate, but i obiviously don't have the same depth of knowledge about this situation that both jude and the mystery person, my opinion is not valid per se. Otherwise, this has become a debate about what head-fi is and is not entitled to know, and i have no intrest in joining in this debate, i've stated my case.

I'm done, the rest of you flame on

 

[Earwax]

Quote:

Originally posted by Ebonyks if you were in the situation of this mystery person, would you feel comfortable having others making claims about you, with no oppertunity to defend yourself, and have people insult an expressed desire to have an accurate-as-possible understanding of a situation?

"Mystery person" apparently has a commercial web site advertising his/her products. He could easily post his side of the story there or on other audio forums.
There's no reason at all to expect the web-guy running a privately owned web-site to provide a forum for the mystery person's side of things.

It sounds like the hypothetical web-guy in that story is doing his best to run an enjoyable and informative web-site. It also sounds like the type of site I'd like to be a member of. Hypothetically, of course.

 

[Old Pa]

Sounds like your hypothetical commercial interest (in his hypothetically rich imagination) "confused" free speech with speech that would not cost him anything.

And who are you anyway (other than the guy with the original idea who still pays the bills)? You just can't make this crap up!

Anyplace else this would have been known as theft and/or theft by deception.