[Dawnrazor]

1) I never said your DAC sucks. I merely said it wasn't galvanically isolated. IMHO galvanic isolation is not necessary for home audio applications. This kind of technology is used in medical sensor equipment, so a sudden voltage spike does not get transferred to the patient. GI, as well as going balanced may help in super noisy live environments, where you have to route the signal past stage lighting etc. Nasty EMI, often too much for internal filter circuits to handle.

2) I was referring to the PSU of your external hard drive, that supposedly degraded your audio signal to such a noticeable extent.

3) You most likely didn't. I know it is very hard to accept that fact around here but human perception isn't accurate and constant enough for that.

Yes I have experienced such a change, when I transitioned from a DT-880 to a Focal Clear. Esp in the bass region, everything was a lot cleaner and more precise. Measurements confirm that it was not just a subjective impression either, Focal Clear has almost an order of magnitude less distortion in the low end than the DT-880. I have yet to hear any difference (apart from output impedance and amps driven beyond specs) between electronic source components. Measurements tell me, unless a DAC rolls off in the higher frequencies, there are no audible differences so they basically confirm what my ears already heard. As you can see: I am scientific minded. I don't trust my senses unconditionally because I know full well how easy our brain is fooled. E.g.: a 0.1dB increase in volume cannot be consciously perceived. However the brain will notice it unconsciously and translate that into improved clarity and quality. Ancient trick used by salesmen.

I don't expect you to share or understand that line of thinking of course. After all, we are wildly different persons. If you think your SD card sounds better than the HDD, enjoy the low cost upgrade.

1. You DID write: "If you have audible effects (I had that on older, El-Cheapo onboard soundcards, you could hear whenever the HDD accessed sth. ) then the design of your DAC is compromised and you need to get a new DAC or think about galvanic isolation (going optical, if latency permits)." I would say a compromised design would suck.

2. Maybe but you wrote that about the dac too. see above.

3. I figured you were in the all electronics sounds the same camp. You seem to want to imply that I am not scientific. Yet say that science is dogmatic and well hearing can and can't do things. Science is adaptive and constantly changes to account for new data. I actually am being very scientific by trying to figure out what I am hearing. I am using abductive reasoning and trying to formulate an hypothesis.

One difference I heard was imaging. How does one measure that?

And really man. You think I put in a SD card and the volume was 0.1db higher and viola i duped myself into thinking the SD card sounded better when I wasn't expecting it?? Like my system would sound better everyday as the startup volume increased all the time...

 

[Ifalna]

1. You DID write: "If you have audible effects (I had that on older, El-Cheapo onboard soundcards, you could hear whenever the HDD accessed sth. ) then the design of your DAC is compromised and you need to get a new DAC or think about galvanic isolation (going optical, if latency permits)."

Yes and I was referring to electrical distortion.
You know: hissing, high frequency noise and all that jazz. VERY easy to notice in virtually every quiet passage. If you heard it, you wouldn't have any insecurities about it and knew something was amiss. I was definitely not talking about some subtle "imaging" effect, whatever that is supposed to mean.

Aye, science evolves around new data all the time. Problem is: there is no new data regarding the reproduction of low frequencies such as audio. At least not when it comes to electronics (transducers & rooms are another matter entirely). Accept that it is a solved problem and don't fall for the audiophile marketing hype. There is only one way to reconstruct a properly sampled (Nyquist) sinus wave accurately, either your equipment can do it or it can't. There really is no in between grey area where we can hear different things. Only thing that can be colored (I say CAN not IS, before you rage on about how I called your DAC "crap") could be the analog pre-amp output stage. I highly doubt that though, because Focusrite aims it's products at professionals that create music, they have little interest in colored equipment that changes the signal w/o their control. If they want to color the signal, they use DSP for that.

 

[Dawnrazor]

Yes and I was referring to electrical distortion.
You know: hissing, high frequency noise and all that jazz. VERY easy to notice in virtually every quiet passage. If you heard it, you wouldn't have any insecurities about it and knew something was amiss. I was definitely not talking about some subtle "imaging" effect, whatever that is supposed to mean.

Aye, science evolves around new data all the time. Problem is: there is no new data regarding the reproduction of low frequencies such as audio. At least not when it comes to electronics (transducers & rooms are another matter entirely). Accept that it is a solved problem and don't fall for the audiophile marketing hype. There is only one way to reconstruct a properly sampled (Nyquist) sinus wave accurately, either your equipment can do it or it can't. There really is no in between grey area where we can hear different things. Only thing that can be colored (I say CAN not IS, before you rage on about how I called your DAC "crap") could be the analog pre-amp output stage. I highly doubt that though, because Focusrite aims it's products at professionals that create music, they have little interest in colored equipment that changes the signal w/o their control. If they want to color the signal, they use DSP for that.

Is saddening that you haven't heard or don't understand "some subtle imaging effect". Its the necessary outcome of your everything sounds the same ethos. True there are diminishing returns but that is where the art of the hobby comes in. All those little returns add up.

Can you hear the difference between cds and 192k mp3?

I can.

 

[bfreedma]

Is saddening that you haven't heard or don't understand "some subtle imaging effect". Its the necessary outcome of your everything sounds the same ethos. True there are diminishing returns but that is where the art of the hobby comes in. All those little returns add up.

Can you hear the difference between cds and 192k mp3?

I can.

I strongly suspect that if you participated in properly controlled testing, the differences you “hear” between your storage media hardware would disappear. The “art” of audio reproduction doesn’t supersede the science of digital data. Transducers are where the differences and some art of design largely exists.

Why not give it a try?

 

[senorx12562]

I don't claim any special expertise or golden ears, but I'll be damned if I can hear any difference between music stored on an sd card and the same files stored on the hdd in the same pc, although the mechanical noise of the hdd is audible on occasion if music is not loud enough to mask it. I am sure it is my faulty ears or crappy gear though.

 

[Dawnrazor]

I strongly suspect that if you participated in properly controlled testing, the differences you “hear” between your storage media hardware would disappear. The “art” of audio reproduction doesn’t supersede the science of digital data. Transducers are where the differences and some art of design largely exists.

Why not give it a try?

How would I test it. I can't simply plug and unplug the drives and listen. You guys really can't hear differences in gear?

 

[Dawnrazor]

I don't claim any special expertise or golden ears, but I'll be damned if I can hear any difference between music stored on an sd card and the same files stored on the hdd in the same pc, although the mechanical noise of the hdd is audible on occasion if music is not loud enough to mask it. I am sure it is my faulty ears or crappy gear though.

It was a pretty clear improvement. I usually listen to the same song when I turn on the computer. That day it was like an old friend was different. FWIW the hdd was an external usb drive and the sd card is in the machine. I bet you could hear it.

 

[Dawnrazor]

I strongly suspect that if you participated in properly controlled testing, the differences you “hear” between your storage media hardware would disappear. The “art” of audio reproduction doesn’t supersede the science of digital data. Transducers are where the differences and some art of design largely exists.

Why not give it a try?

Agree on transducers. Do you know why on an open headphone reflections on the ring on the outward facing side affect the sound? Its audible but that reflection is the back wave and happens long after one hears the sound.

How does one measure soundstage?

 

[bfreedma]

How would I test it. I can't simply plug and unplug the drives and listen. You guys really can't hear differences in gear?

Why can’t you listen to/compare the same song stored on a USB hard drive and an SD card?

I can hear differences in transducers. Clearly. Properly designed electronics? No audible differences except for improperly designed, or intentionally colored electronics. Not sure why anyone would want badly designed or intentionally colored hardware.

 

[senorx12562]

I hear differences between the sound of all sorts of gear, dacs, amps, and especially transducers, but have never heard differences in sound quality based on the computer end of the chain that aren't more in the nature of artifacts, like clicks, pops, dropouts, etc. IME, if there are no such artifacts, sq itself is the same, from computer to computer, software to software (not includind dsp used expressly to change sound of course), and "optimizers" do nothing that cannot be done by the user alone, and most of those things are not necessary anyway unless there are such artifacts.

 

[senorx12562]

If the two dacs I have sound the same, and I only hear differences between them because of some psychological phenomenon such as bias of some sort, I am grateful for that bias, because one of them sounds really good to me.

 

[Ifalna]

Is saddening that you haven't heard or don't understand "some subtle imaging effect". Its the necessary outcome of your everything sounds the same ethos. True there are diminishing returns but that is where the art of the hobby comes in. All those little returns add up.

Can you hear the difference between cds and 192k mp3?

I can.

Hmm I would need a more detailed description for "imaging" in order to conclude if it is indeed sth I have experienced or not. As it stands, the wording is to vague to make sense to me.

192kBit vs lossless is possible but it's already difficult. I managed to hear out 320KBit too but it was at a very high volume and contained problematic samples for the encoder.
I'll be honest: in casual listening while doing stuff next to hearing music, I don't stand a chance to reliably identify the compressed material. 225KBit is what I use for mobile applications, considering unavoidable ambient noise that is more than enough fidelity.

BTW I can hear differences in electronic gear.
My Titanium HD has an output impedance of 35Ω, which means that the Clear (55Ω) is underdamped. My Rode AI1 Audio interface sounds noticeably colder by comparison, my guess is that it has a lower output impedance and thus reduces the resonance (a.k.a.: less exaggerated bass). It is a pretty subtle effect though, you have to listen for it and your ears get accustomed to either one within minutes. Again: I hear stuff that is confirmed by measurements.

 

[Dawnrazor]

Why can’t you listen to/compare the same song stored on a USB hard drive and an SD card?

I can hear differences in transducers. Clearly. Properly designed electronics? No audible differences except for improperly designed, or intentionally colored electronics. Not sure why anyone would want badly designed or intentionally colored hardware.

2 reasons. My player needs to have the location changed between the 2. Secondly I couldn't leave both installed to adequately test things. So I would need to attach usb and insert sd card to do a fair comparison. Both those would introduce too much time between samples.

Sure I could use a different player like foobar, but thats not the best sounding player.

What amps and or dacs have you compared??

 

[bfreedma]

Agree on transducers. Do you know why on an open headphone reflections on the ring on the outward facing side affect the sound? Its audible but that reflection is the back wave and happens long after one hears the sound.

How does one measure soundstage?

I don’t understand what you’re asking in regards to open headphones. Example of the ring your referencing? - there’s a big variance in construction of open headphones. HD800 vs. LCD2/3/4 for instance.

“Soundstage” (actually headstage) on headphones is largely a product of FR, phase and impulse response. There’s a strong correlation between headphones with an FR spike at/near 9khz and the perception of a wide headstage.

 

[Dawnrazor]

Hmm I would need a more detailed description for "imaging" in order to conclude if it is indeed sth I have experienced or not. As it stands, the wording is to vague to make sense to me.

192kBit vs lossless is possible but it's already difficult. I managed to hear out 320KBit too but it was at a very high volume and contained problematic samples for the encoder.
I'll be honest: in casual listening while doing stuff next to hearing music, I don't stand a chance to reliably identify the compressed material. 225KBit is what I use for mobile applications, considering unavoidable ambient noise that is more than enough fidelity.

BTW I can hear differences in electronic gear.
My Titanium HD has an output impedance of 35Ω, which means that the Clear (55Ω) is underdamped. My Rode AI1 Audio interface sounds noticeably colder by comparison, my guess is that it has a lower output impedance and thus reduces the resonance (a.k.a.: less exaggerated bass). It is a pretty subtle effect though, you have to listen for it and your ears get accustomed to either one within minutes. Again: I hear stuff that is confirmed by measurements.

Imaging is kind of 2 things. Its the soundstage and the precision of placement of the instruments inside the soundstage. When I switched the sd, the image became better defined and there was more black between the instruments. Its like when you focus a microscope. When its out of focus the image is bigger but blurry. When its focused its smaller and precise.

192k is easy to abx. 320 is harder at least it was years ago when I tried.

Ok, no difference in dacs??