[pabbi1]

Quote:

Originally Posted by milkpowder /img/forum/go_quote.gif DIY is an attractive option. So the KGSS is $500 in parts. What about the Blue Hawaii (using very good parts, but not boutique stuff)? Now the next part is finding someone to build one for you!

I spent about $1700 in parts, with only GoldPoint stepped attenuators as boutique parts. I am looking at spending some $$$ on better tubes, so, NOS Mullards will add another $4-600. You _could_ build a BH for ~$1k if you are careful with part selection, and are REAL handy at DIY, including boardwork, hearsinks, and casing.

 

[Duggeh]

To DIY an amp like a KGSS or a KGBH, with little or no prior experience with DIY though, is something which turns into a dead end, or into a real long labour of love. Such a labour as to take so long as to make a $1k/£500 budget seen unworthy, one would start to want to put parts into the project which would reflect what one would interpret as being the reflection of ones own sweat blood and tears. That is certainly, how I would see things unravelling where I to undertake such a project in myself at any rate.

Id sooner do so however, than hand over the splondulicks to another person to do it for me. Were I ever to move beyond the 717, that's how I'd do it, slowly, painfully and with blackened flux ridden lungs and a swear box full to the brim from all my mistakes.

 

[milkpowder]

Quote:

Originally Posted by pabbi1 /img/forum/go_quote.gif I spent about $1700 in parts, with only GoldPoint stepped attenuators as boutique parts. I am looking at spending some $$$ on better tubes, so, NOS Mullards will add another $4-600. You _could_ build a BH for ~$1k if you are careful with part selection, and are REAL handy at DIY, including boardwork, hearsinks, and casing.

How much would it cost to commission someone to build one for you? I'm in no financial position to afford one, but would 300 bucks seem reasonable? Obviously, I'll have to trust the builder to be absolutely honest with the parts because I won't be able to tell.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Duggeh /img/forum/go_quote.gif To DIY an amp like a KGSS or a KGBH, with little or no prior experience with DIY though, is something which turns into a dead end, or into a real long labour of love. Such a labour as to take so long as to make a $1k/£500 budget seen unworthy, one would start to want to put parts into the project which would reflect what one would interpret as being the reflection of ones own sweat blood and tears. That is certainly, how I would see things unravelling where I to undertake such a project in myself at any rate. Id sooner do so however, than hand over the splondulicks to another person to do it for me. Were I ever to move beyond the 717, that's how I'd do it, slowly, painfully and with blackened flux ridden lungs and a swear box full to the brim from all my mistakes.

LOL! I was never thinking of DIY'ing one myself. I can't even solder four pieces of metal together to form a "double-u"

Buying a KGSS or KGBH from Justin would be the safest option since he's got heaps of experience with building amps. That said, you probably wouldn't get $1.7k worth of bling parts, but you're guaranteed a working amp which KG himself would be proud of.

 

[[AK]Zip]

Quote:

Originally Posted by milkpowder /img/forum/go_quote.gif How much would it cost to commission someone to build one for you? I'm in no financial position to afford one, but would 300 bucks seem reasonable? Obviously, I'll have to trust the builder to be absolutely honest with the parts because I won't be able to tell. LOL! I was never thinking of DIY'ing one myself. I can't even solder four pieces of metal together to form a "double-u" Buying a KGSS or KGBH from Justin would be the safest option since he's got heaps of experience with building amps. That said, you probably wouldn't get $1.7k worth of bling parts, but you're guaranteed a working amp which KG himself would be proud of.

Having worked on a Blue Hawaii and being in the process myself of building one. I can tell you the hard part is getting the boards, picking out the parts, and finally building it. Being a person as I am that I have to have everything a certain way and perfect at the same time a custom amazing looking case the project ends up costing a bunch. That and I like nice parts...

-Alex-

 

[milkpowder]

I would love to have you build me an amp Alex! An amazing custom case + nice parts sounds terrific! It's just the issue of money! I'd pay extra just to get that amazing look and sound. I'm sure a $2.5k Alex KGBH would sound better than a $2.5k commercially-built KGBH.

Do you mind telling us how much your BH would cost all together and how much labour will go into it?

 

[[AK]Zip]

Quote:

Originally Posted by milkpowder /img/forum/go_quote.gif I would love to have you build me an amp Alex! An amazing custom case + nice parts sounds terrific! It's just the issue of money! I'd pay extra just to get that amazing look and sound. I'm sure a $2.5k Alex KGBH would sound better than a $2.5k commercially-built KGBH. Do you mind telling us how much your BH would cost all together and how much labour will go into it?

I will let you know once it's done, but some things that I do as DIY won't be possible to others. Like a full DIY case with engraving which will cost me only material costs since I have a CNC.

There are others. In mine there will be less money involved, but a lot more labor. Defiantly something I will not be willing to do over and over again.

-Alex-

 

[milkpowder]

Quote:

Originally Posted by [AK]Zip /img/forum/go_quote.gif I will let you know once it's done, but some things that I do as DIY won't be possible to others. Like a full DIY case with engraving which will cost me only material costs since I have a CNC. There are others. In mine there will be less money involved, but a lot more labor. Defiantly something I will not be willing to do over and over again. -Alex-

Cool. It's not cool that I'm broke though...

 

[neilvg]

Milk -

Nice impressions! I find the HE60's to be quite airy, much more so than the Stax. But it might depend on various associated equipment tweaks, etc... Anyway, it might have been the case that the headphones weren't fully charged up and 'alive' when you first heard them (I just found this thread =) ).

The metallic or overly fast and edgy sheen is amp dependent for the most part. I have never heard them sound better than out of an HEV90 or a KGBH or KGSS (depending on your setup and taste and bass preference).

The HE90's really do sound very different to me, and while they share a few similar traits, it is not simply the case that the HE90 is just an upgraded version of the HE60's. The HE60's have their own style and swagger, and some people even find them more enjoyable. Note: NOT ME. =) I love the HE90's, but it took me a while to get them perfect. I feel the HE60's are the same way, and if your willing to go the distance, they are a steller headphone, amazing in their own right regardless of the HE90's.

Neil

 

[ej82m]

Congratulations! They are the best pair of headphones I've heard so far, and the stax amps make them sound even better. Thanks for your impressions!

 

[milkpowder]

Quote:

Originally Posted by neilvg /img/forum/go_quote.gif Milk - Nice impressions! I find the HE60's to be quite airy, much more so than the Stax. But it might depend on various associated equipment tweaks, etc... Anyway, it might have been the case that the headphones weren't fully charged up and 'alive' when you first heard them (I just found this thread =) ). The metallic or overly fast and edgy sheen is amp dependent for the most part. I have never heard them sound better than out of an HEV90 or a KGBH or KGSS (depending on your setup and taste and bass preference). The HE90's really do sound very different to me, and while they share a few similar traits, it is not simply the case that the HE90 is just an upgraded version of the HE60's. The HE60's have their own style and swagger, and some people even find them more enjoyable. Note: NOT ME. =) I love the HE90's, but it took me a while to get them perfect. I feel the HE60's are the same way, and if your willing to go the distance, they are a steller headphone, amazing in their own right regardless of the HE90's. Neil

Quote:

Originally Posted by ej82m /img/forum/go_quote.gif Congratulations! They are the best pair of headphones I've heard so far, and the stax amps make them sound even better. Thanks for your impressions!

Thanks a lot! Last question before I sleep (it's freakin' 5am

): Is my source really letting me down? I'm using a cheapo $200 Audiophile USB at the moment. Would getting a new source help make the HE60 more airy? I sincerely think the HE60 is not as airy as the SR-404 and doubt that more burn-in (whether physical or mental) will help. I love the way the HE60 is sounding, but would definitely want a more relaxed sound signature. I would not want to loose the intimacy and intensity though... Since I'm literally broke atm (negative audio funds. I need and like to eat, unlike Patrick), I cannot afford to move anything at the moment, but was thinking of either a Benchmark DAC1 USB and then probably a 007tII or a KGSS for the distant future (over the course of the next 12 months).

 

[ej82m]

I haven't heard of the m-audiophile, but these headphones really do benefit from a better source. Coming from an emu 0404/dac-ah, my E5 and dac1 sound so much better that I pretty much switched to cd listening now.

Edit:
Personally, I wouldn't worry about upgrading at the moment. It seems that you already have a pretty nice rig already. Just start saving up and enjoy the music!

 

[mikeliao]

How amp dependent is the HE60? I would say not that much. The KGSS and Stax 717 sound very similiar except the 717 can sometimes be a little harsh depending on the source material. The KGSS, well, depends on your build.

Upgrade the source before the amp. The 006t is a very good amp. Seeing that you're in HK sometimes, stop by diyclub.biz and get a DAC-AM. Works very well in balanced mode for the low price. Soundstage is similiar to DAC-1. The DAC-1 is much more detailed, but at 4x the price. The DA220 keeps the DAC-1 detail, opens the soundstage even more, ups the macrodynamics a tad, and tames the high textures. In reality I use the DAC-1 more since its small, easy to transport, and can drive dynamic headphones. The DA220 sits in a shelf with the other 'big' gear, for when there's time to enjoy an hour or two.

K1000 and HE60. Hmmm, K1000 = Soundstage and details. HE60 = speed and dynamics. K1000 = half hour setup and adjustments. HE60 = put on, push play. Like my profile say, I don't use the K1000 much, its just too much hassle to use. Soundstage is best served by speakers.

 

[neilvg]

Quote:

Originally Posted by milkpowder /img/forum/go_quote.gif Thanks a lot! Last question before I sleep (it's freakin' 5am ): Is my source really letting me down? I'm using a cheapo $200 Audiophile USB at the moment. Would getting a new source help make the HE60 more airy? I sincerely think the HE60 is not as airy as the SR-404 and doubt that more burn-in (whether physical or mental) will help. I love the way the HE60 is sounding, but would definitely want a more relaxed sound signature. I would not want to loose the intimacy and intensity though... Since I'm literally broke atm (negative audio funds. I need and like to eat, unlike Patrick), I cannot afford to move anything at the moment, but was thinking of either a Benchmark DAC1 USB and then probably a 007tII or a KGSS for the distant future (over the course of the next 12 months).

I would certainly say that the source makes the biggest difference to the sound. This is more important than the amp you use with the HE60's. The M-Audio stuff is alright. I've spent a bit of time trying to get computer audio to sound good. It gets pretty good, but nowhere near (as far as I've heard so far) as good as a good transport/dac combo. No way, it's a different presentation altogether.

But I wouldn't necessarily hurry to get a good source/dac either. I would however look into a good DAC first though. Personally, CD's sound so much better than from a computer, it's hard to use the computer (despite its convenience) when I have the choice. I only have this feeling with regards to the best transport/dac (and cabling) configurations. If it's just a mid-fi CD-based setup, than computer as source can sound just as good as any of those and you'd be best spending your money on getting the computer audio to sound better (dac, power regenerator for the switching power supply in the PC, etc...).

Neil

 

[milkpowder]

Thanks so much for the help. There's some pretty darn solid advice from the pros there.

Quote:

Originally Posted by ej82m /img/forum/go_quote.gif I haven't heard of the m-audiophile, but these headphones really do benefit from a better source. Coming from an emu 0404/dac-ah, my E5 and dac1 sound so much better that I pretty much switched to cd listening now.

I see. If the E5/DAC1 "sounds so much better" than the 0404/DAC-AH, which should already sound much better than the "M-Audiophile", then I think I should really be aiming for a DAC upgrade first. CDs sound great, but I don't really keep many CDs at university. I'd use CDs if I was back home. At home, my dad listens to CDs so we have a decent "collection" + nice CD/SACD player. I do like picking music from a hard copy versus clicking on a computer. I also love watching the disc mechanism smoothly glide out, disc in, and then back in. For some reason, it's just more special.

Quote:

Edit: Personally, I wouldn't worry about upgrading at the moment. It seems that you already have a pretty nice rig already. Just start saving up and enjoy the music!

No worries. I'll be enjoying music alright!

Quote:

Originally Posted by mikeliao /img/forum/go_quote.gif How amp dependent is the HE60? I would say not that much. The KGSS and Stax 717 sound very similiar except the 717 can sometimes be a little harsh depending on the source material. The KGSS, well, depends on your build.

Thanks. You've saved me a lot of money. Looks like the 006t will stay around for a while

Quote:

Upgrade the source before the amp. The 006t is a very good amp. Seeing that you're in HK sometimes, stop by diyaudio and get a DAC-AM. Works very well in balanced mode for the low price. Soundstage is similiar to DAC-1. The DAC-1 is much more detailed, but at 4x the price. The DA220 keeps the DAC-1 detail, opens the soundstage even more, ups the macrodynamics a tad, and tames the high textures. In reality I use the DAC-1 more since its small, easy to transport, and can drive dynamic headphones. The DA220 sits in a shelf with the other 'big' gear, for when there's time to enjoy an hour or two.

Definitely possible. So the DAC-1 is only "much more detailed" than the DAC-AM? Pacific Valve do some pretty interesting upgrades to a many Chinese DACs, the DAC-AM being one of them. I wonder if there is an equivalent in Hong Kong?

The DA220 mk2 is only a tad more expensive than the DAC1 USB. It'll be tempting to get the DA220 mk2 since I'll only be saving up for a bit longer. However like you said, the small, transportable form factor of the DAC1 in general, is a very attractive "feature".

Quote:

K1000 and HE60. Hmmm, K1000 = Soundstage and details. HE60 = speed and dynamics. K1000 = half hour setup and adjustments. HE60 = put on, push play. Like my profile say, I don't use the K1000 much, its just too much hassle to use. Soundstage is best served by speakers.

I won't be able to have both rigs anyway, so I think the I'll try to get the most out of the HE60 first before going crazy with dynamic headphones. The amp choice for the K1000 is, I read, paramount to it making good sound. People talk about the $7k Air Tight ATM-300 amp as the be all end all amp for the K1000. Others such as Neil use MBL monoblocks

For the modest me that I am, there's no way I'll be able to afford either. Maybe in 10 years

Quote:

Originally Posted by neilvg /img/forum/go_quote.gif I would certainly say that the source makes the biggest difference to the sound. This is more important than the amp you use with the HE60's. The M-Audio stuff is alright. I've spent a bit of time trying to get computer audio to sound good. It gets pretty good, but nowhere near (as far as I've heard so far) as good as a good transport/dac combo. No way, it's a different presentation altogether.

Again, concrete advice. The general consensus seems to be "Source 1st, Amp 2nd." Surely any computer digital transport + your EMMLabs DAC will sound nice? Maybe not as nice as the EMMLabs stack because of all the fancy ingenious jitter-proof perfection connection between the transport/dac. Space and money (university, student circumstances) prevent me from going all out at the moment. If I was at home and my dad gave me a bit of support, perhaps I'd get a proper home DAC. That said, single-box players sound great too. My dad currently uses an Esoteric X-03SE and my word does it sing. I've compared it to the Chord Blu/DAC64 transport/dac combo and IMHO, the X-03SE sounds better. I'd even say the X-03SE is damn close to the X-01 Limited, which is significantly more expensive. I just wonder how the EMMLabs single-box sounds because I heard the dCS P8i and I was pretty impressed by the sound. The X-01Limited, P8i and CDSA are probably about as good as single-box players get if you ignore the 808i and Evolution 505.

Quote:

But I wouldn't necessarily hurry to get a good source/dac either. I would however look into a good DAC first though. Personally, CD's sound so much better than from a computer, it's hard to use the computer (despite its convenience) when I have the choice. I only have this feeling with regards to the best transport/dac (and cabling) configurations. If it's just a mid-fi CD-based setup, than computer as source can sound just as good as any of those and you'd be best spending your money on getting the computer audio to sound better (dac, power regenerator for the switching power supply in the PC, etc...). Neil

OK. Stello DA100 is relatively cheap and I heard the DA220 is basically the DA100 with balanced outputs. My understanding is that all electrostatic systems are extrinsically balanced.(not absolutely sure about this) In your experience, does going fully balanced really make a big difference? I read the 6moons review of the 3030 and 4040 systems and they didn't seem to hear much of a difference between the balanced and SE inputs of the 006t

Then again, they didn't tell between the 3030 and 4040 either

I've never thought about power stuff. Never thought about regeneration, but would something like a Shunyata Hydra 4 or PSAudio Power Center (used to be Ultimate Outlet) do any good? Power regeneration is beyond my budget for the near, predictable future. I'm already running my electronics through a Belkin PureAV 8-socket mains block, which apparently does some filtering. TBH, I don't think I heard a difference between connection to the mains and through the PureAV block at all. I also tried using one of those Russ Andrews noise harvesters (he likes to call the The Silencer) and that did absolutely nothing. Worst $80 spent.

 

[webbie64]

Good to have you join the club.

Complete agreement with what others have said:
* Give yourself time with them over a few weeks - it'll settle the desire to immediately upgrade amps (though I'll still aim for a KGBH when financially feasable).
* Yes, always give them warm up time - it's the difference between "why did I pay so much?" and "how can I take these off my head to get the sleep I so desperately need...I wonder what that album would be like..I'll just try it before sleeping..."
* Get the Stax plug termination by Alex. Best $40 you'll ever spend.
* Yes, source searching can become the next addiction - you get to hear so much of the differences between source equipment, even with the basic Stax Amp (I don't know how much more difference we'd hear with a KGBH or ES-1!).

In short, though, Enjoy - listen to the music, music, music