[Edric Li]

thanks, i guess i should clarify on the sound, i'm looking for more and more neutral as time goes on (other iems i've enjoyed are SSR/SSP for example), i mainly want to hear what was recorded rather than whatever coloration is provided by iems tuned in specific ways. how much of a difference would JH be from say the "IEF Neutral" (instead of harman)? i guess my main goal is to just get pure original sound with as much detail/imaging as i can if that makes sense.. something like the z1r i found actually offensive

You mean the IEF Neutral curve on @crinacle's site? Harman curve is basically IEF curve with extra subbass. The most famous IEM tuned to the IEF Neutral curve is the Etymotic ER4, and trust me you won't like. The most famous IEM tuned to the Harman curve is the N5005, which is very similar to Blessing dusk, hence the recommendation.

There isn't a neutral standard in the IEM world. It is still an ongoing debate on what does it mean for an IEM to be neutral. If you ask me, IEF curve is way too bright, and Harman curve sacrifices too much lower mids. JH and the stage monitor type of sound is much darker and the mid/lower mid is much more forward.

 

[Edric Li]

On another note: in terms of popularity, Sony Z1R is quite literally one of the most successful hi-end IEM of all time, for good reasons. Why do you find it offensive?

 

[GodEmperor]

You mean the IEF Neutral curve on @crinacle's site? Harman curve is basically IEF curve with extra subbass. The most famous IEM tuned to the IEF Neutral curve is the Etymotic ER4, and trust me you won't like. The most famous IEM tuned to the Harman curve is the N5005, which is very similar to Blessing dusk, hence the recommendation.

There isn't a neutral standard in the IEM world. It is still an ongoing debate on what does it mean for an IEM to be neutral. If you ask me, IEF curve is way too bright, and Harman curve sacrifices too much lower mids. JH and the stage monitor type of sound is much darker and the mid/lower mid is much more forward.

yeah, the IEF curve one on crinacle's site. I've heard both layla's and roxanne's described as having "very luscious sound" and being detail rich on both the low and high freqs so i end up very confused about all the terms. I do find harman "bright" too, as you said. not inoffensively so, for sure. would JH/stage monitor reduce that brightness so much as to make say, female vocals/guitars/high hats lose the richness they have on something like the B2? would the darkness make the music tracks sound boomy or bassy? i've also heard the term "veiled" thrown around on JH iems which adds to my confusion.

On another note: in terms of popularity, Sony Z1R is quite literally one of the most successful hi-end IEM of all time, for good reasons. Why do you find it offensive?

well the bass was a bit overwhelming, and it's more or less considered V-curve right? at least the mids seemed lacking to me compared to others.

a bit metaphysical, but in the end i honestly feel drawn to the layla/roxanne's and i dont even know why lol

 

[Edric Li]

yeah, the IEF curve one on crinacle's site. I've heard both layla's and roxanne's described as having "very luscious sound" and being detail rich on both the low and high freqs so i end up very confused about all the terms. I do find harman "bright" too, as you said. not inoffensively so, for sure. would JH/stage monitor reduce that brightness so much as to make say, female vocals/guitars/high hats lose the richness they have on something like the B2? would the darkness make the music tracks sound boomy or bassy? i've also heard the term "veiled" thrown around on JH iems which adds to my confusion.


well the bass was a bit overwhelming, and it's more or less considered V-curve right? at least the mids seemed lacking to me compared to others.

a bit metaphysical, but in the end i honestly feel drawn to the layla/roxanne's and i dont even know why lol

Let me break it down for you once and for all:

Warm = more bass, cold = less bass, dark = less treble, bright = more treble
JH: Warm. Lots of subbass and upperbass. Layla is dark. Roxanne is very dark. No fatigue whatsoever. Vocal sounds solid as a result of no exaggerated uppermid. Avoid if you enjoy hearing hi-hats (yes, you will have a hard time even hearing them). Avoid if you enjoy "young/breath-y" sounding vocal. Avoid if you prioritize the impression of transparency, because you can't have upperbass and not sound boxy/veiled.
Harman (N5005, blessing dusk): Lots of subbass but very little upperbass, giving a nice wow factor of being warm and not being boxy. Elevated uppermid, good if you enjoy "breath-y" sounding vocal. Avoid if you care about the sound of electric guitar (need upper bass). Avoid if you hate treble glare.
IEF Curve (ER4, W10000): Just... bright... and hollow...

From your impression of the Z1R, I'm guessing Harman is for you: Z1R has more upperbass than Harman but no more subbass. JH, on the other hand, has much much more upper bass than Z1R, so they are probably not for you.

My recommendation for your would be N5005 (esp. with bass filter), but do keep an open mind

 

[GodEmperor]

Let me break it down for you once and for all:

Warm = more bass, cold = less bass, dark = less treble, bright = more treble
JH: Warm. Lots of subbass and upperbass. Layla is dark. Roxanne is very dark. No fatigue whatsoever. Vocal sounds solid as a result of no exaggerated uppermid. Avoid if you enjoy hearing hi-hats (yes, you will have a hard time even hearing them). Avoid if you enjoy "young/breath-y" sounding vocal. Avoid if you prioritize the impression of transparency, because you can't have upperbass and not sound boxy/veiled.
Harman (N5005, blessing dusk): Lots of subbass but very little upperbass, giving a nice wow factor of being warm and not being boxy. Elevated uppermid, good if you enjoy "breath-y" sounding vocal. Avoid if you care about the sound of electric guitar (need upper bass). Avoid if you hate treble glare.
IEF Curve (ER4, W10000): Just... bright... and hollow...

From your impression of the Z1R, I'm guessing Harman is for you: Z1R has more upperbass than Harman but no more subbass. JH, on the other hand, has much much more upper bass than Z1R, so they are probably not for you.

My recommendation for your would be N5005, but do keep an open mind

thanks for that explanation! I guess I should revisit what I am looking for. that being said, your final word on layla or roxanne as far as "detail" and "lushness of sound"?

 

[Edric Li]

thanks for that explanation! I guess I should revisit what I am looking for. that being said, your final word on layla or roxanne as far as "detail" and "lushness of sound"?

If by detail you mean the breathing of the vocalist, the sparkle of the percussion and the scratch of a guitar pick, then no, you will have a hard time hearing those on Layla and Roxanne.
If by detail you mean the body of the imaging, the vividness of the midrange and the depth of the sound stage, then Layla and Roxanne are pretty hard to beat. They are some lush and sophisticated IEM. Takes a trained ear to appreciate. Really comes down to what you are looking for. My guess is that you are looking for N5005, but I could be wrong.

Nonetheless, I am jealous of you for even having the opportunity to get such good of a deal on them!

 

[immortalsoul]

Another thing to consider is that both Layla and Roxanne need a lot of power to shine. If they have a lot of power from a dap they become more balanced in signature, less dark. Also, if you want to be even brighter you can choose a Moon Audio Silver Dragon cable

 

[immortalsoul]

If you are interested in Layla. I have a nice pair, the titanium version for sale

 

[cpurdy]

Another thing to consider is that both Layla and Roxanne need a lot of power to shine. If they have a lot of power from a dap they become more balanced in signature, less dark.

It's not just power, since my Ray Samuels amp has plenty of power but still plays the Laylas dark. Crazily enough, the Apple iPhone DAC can play them plenty bright, and there's not way that it comes close to the power that the Ray Samuels has.

I don't consider the Laylas to be bass heavy, but I also leave them down at 9 or 10 o'clock usually ...

 

[GodEmperor]

how many layla models are out there besides CIEM? i've seen the siren (aka layla 1), the full metal jacket (layla 2) and the layla aion, is that all? and what differences do they have, if any, soundwise?

 

[GiullianSN]

how many layla models are out there besides CIEM? i've seen the siren (aka layla 1), the full metal jacket (layla 2) and the layla aion, is that all? and what differences do they have, if any, soundwise?

Those are the ones I know. They shouldn't have any difference, just the housing. But some mey find differences.

 

[Edric Li]

Those are the ones I know. They shouldn't have any difference, just the housing. But some mey find differences.

I think it's more about unit variance than difference between the models. I've heard two pairs of Layla II more different that a pair of Layla II and I. The difference was subtle, though.

 

[GodEmperor]

would an r3 pro saber be enough to drive the laylas? if an amp is needed, are there any good portable amps under, say, $100 USD?

 

[GiullianSN]

would an r3 pro saber be enough to drive the laylas? if an amp is needed, are there any good portable amps under, say, $100 USD?

I do drive mine with BTR5 easily. you may want to give that one a look. another option is Lootoo P1. Both around $100.

PS.: I did have the original R3 a long time ago and it was a decent amp. if you already have it, try it first before jumping on another one.
PS.: I would go with more neutral to bright DAP/DAC/AMP as the Layla's are warm by design.

 

[GodEmperor]

I do drive mine with BTR5 easily. you may want to give that one a look. another option is Lootoo P1. Both around $100.

PS.: I did have the original R3 a long time ago and it was a decent amp. if you already have it, try it first before jumping on another one.
PS.: I would go with more neutral to bright DAP/DAC/AMP as the Layla's are warm by design.

Thanks! I got the saber last year because it was described as being neutral compared to regular r3 pro because of the ESS DAC, and i would agree with that. Are either the BTR5 or Lootoo considered neutral as far as amp function goes? I know the BTR5 also has the ESS chip. someone also told me to look into Oriolus BA300S tube amp, but it may be more than I want to spend and I've been told that one is warmish.