[roy_jones]

Quote:

As good as the O2 + BHSE is (I've heard it multiple times and used to own O2+KGSS), there is definitely room for improvement.  To me the system always sounded a little enclosed with not the best soundstage.  Imaging and seperation of instruments is top notch, but i'm always left a little wanting after hearing the system.  That is why a lot of us as the most recent SoCal meet preferred the Omega + BHSE over the O2 on n3rdling's rig (but bass was pretty week on Omega).  My point is that no system is perfect and there's a lot of room for improvement, even on a high en electrostatic rig.
 
In theory, the system that Jerry is inventing has the posibility of being truly amazing in terms of speed, detail retreival, soundstage, with phase accurate adjustable bass (with 4 bass drivers for overhead).  Since half of what makes a system sound good is the synergy between source, amp, and headphone, the JH3a has the potential to be great since all of those are developed together.

 


 

I'm very curious about the maximum potential for soundstage reproduction in an IEM.  My skepticism has more to do purely with the limitations inherent to the respective designs, and the advantages that go with having drivers placed physically further away from the ear.   
 
I guess the big question I would have would be whether the best possible soundstage implementation in an IEM could exceed the capabilities of a traditional headphone for which soundstage isn't one of it's primary strengths.   I can envision some people "preferring" an IEM soundstage, but I don't know about whether an IEM soundstage can compete on a more objective basis. 

 

[monsieurguzel]

Yeah, I too have these thoughts all the time.  To me, no headphone gets anywhere near the performance of a good speaker setup in terms of soundstage realism.  On a properly setup speaker setup wit the listener in the right position, you really get a true sense of space with the singer dead in the center with instruments left, right, and/or behind the vocals.  When I close my eyes with my speakers I can litterally get transported to the event and feel in the same room as the performance.  To me, no headphone setup has ever achieved this kind of realism.  Due to the nature that sound comes from a fixed position aprox 1" away from your ears, the music ends up very much in your head.  Crossfade has never been convincing to me so I turn it off. 
 
Headphones like the K1000 try to aleviate this issue by litterally placing the two sound sources float in space in front of you, thus allowing a natural crossfade hapen.  The 20-30 degree angle of the 2 planes also emulates a speaker setup more closely.  The O2, while wonderful at imaging and separation, has never been convincing in terms of soundstage, especially since the sound originates from an flat plane that is paralell to you ear (as opposed to a more point source in front of you for the HD800).
 
IEMs on the other hand are litterally in your ear, which I think if tuned properly can trick you mind into creating a convincing soundstage.  No IEM has ever achieved this for me, but the JH3a, while still very much sounding in your head, felt extremely layered (due to the mulitiple drivers?) and had a pretty convinsing soundstage.  I feel that passive crossovers always add a little bit of veil to the sound since you are adding a resistor in the audio path to split the signal and distribute the frequency.  By doing an active crossover, all that is done in the DSP and each driver cluster is fed a direct signal from the amp.  I feel that this method can really overcome a lot of deficiencies that I usually find with IEMs.

 

[Anaxilus]

Wow, a lot of you guys I guess haven't heard what something like X-Fi or the Realizer can do w/ headphones.  The technology does exist to image and position sound w/ pin-point accuracy even in 7.1 or 360 degrees.  Been around for a long time.  The whole debate about SS in IEMs, headphones and speakers is a joke IMO.  The technology just needs to be implemented properly and I presume the 3A would be one such implementation.  If the technology already exists, as it does, discussing any perceived limitations just seems superfluous to me.  

 

[monsieurguzel]

How the heck is the debate about sound stage in speakers a joke may I ask you???  Also, I'm sorry but I have no interest in 7.1 and dsp systems that mix stereo recordings to sound 'good' out of surround speakers.  If you have a proper setup, you'd be surprised by what you can achieve with just stereo speakers.
 
Finally, regarding what the Jh3a is doing, it isn't mixing audio like the realizer would, but instead removes the passive crossovers from the iem encloser and utilizes the DSP to do all the calculations as to what signal to send to each driver in the iem.
 
Quote:

Wow, a lot of you guys I guess haven't heard what something like X-Fi or the Realizer can do w/ headphones.  The technology does exist to image and position sound w/ pin-point accuracy even in 7.1 or 360 degrees.  Been around for a long time.  The whole debate about SS in IEMs, headphones and speakers is a joke IMO.  The technology just needs to be implemented properly and I presume the 3A would be one such implementation.  If the technology already exists, as it does, discussing any perceived limitations just seems superfluous to me.  

 

 

[Anaxilus]

Quote:

How the heck is the debate about sound stage in speakers a joke may I ask you???  Also, I'm sorry but I have no interest in 7.1 and dsp systems that mix stereo recordings to sound 'good' out of surround speakers.  If you have a proper setup, you'd be surprised by what you can achieve with just stereo speakers.
 
Finally, regarding what the Jh3a is doing, it isn't mixing audio like the realizer would, but instead removes the passive crossovers from the iem encloser and utilizes the DSP to do all the calculations as to what signal to send to each driver in the iem.

There's a lot over simplification there in what you said and what you think I said so without being 'obnoxious' I'll let my comments digest a bit.
 

 

[maverickronin]

Quote:

Wow, a lot of you guys I guess haven't heard what something like X-Fi or the Realizer can do w/ headphones.  The technology does exist to image and position sound w/ pin-point accuracy even in 7.1 or 360 degrees.  Been around for a long time.  The whole debate about SS in IEMs, headphones and speakers is a joke IMO.  The technology just needs to be implemented properly and I presume the 3A would be one such implementation.  If the technology already exists, as it does, discussing any perceived limitations just seems superfluous to me.  

The DSP in the 3A just does the crossover points, not any spatial virtualization.  The reason it has such good soundstaging without that is because it aligns the phase almost perfectly between the drivers and frequencies.  Even single drivers don't have perfect phase across their whole frequency spectrum because the whole diaphragm doesn't move in the same phase.  Even planers ('stats and orthos) suffer from this to a degree since their diaphragms still have to be anchored somewhere.
 
A single BA already has better phase alignment then all but the best of other kinds of transducers when playing full range since the drivers are so small and easily controlled across their radiating surface.  Multiple drivers and crossovers are two steps forward and one step back.  Each BA is free to operate in a more narrow band, reducing distortion, but without careful design this decreases phase coherence and the crossovers add some phase oddities of their own.  The 3A fixes that problem by adjusting for both the physical arrangement of the drivers and the phase delay caused by the crossovers to achieve what I would bet is unrivaled phase coherence.
 
A Realiser plus a 3A would be a formidable combination indeed.

 

[maverickronin]

Quote:

How the heck is the debate about sound stage in speakers a joke may I ask you???  Also, I'm sorry but I have no interest in 7.1 and dsp systems that mix stereo recordings to sound 'good' out of surround speakers.  If you have a proper setup, you'd be surprised by what you can achieve with just stereo speakers.

Its not about upmixing stereo to 5.1 or 7.1.  It about downmixing surround or regular stereo mixed for speakers into binaural for headphones.

 

[Anaxilus]

Quote:

The DSP in the 3A just does the crossover points, not any spatial virtualization.  The reason it has such good soundstaging without that is because it aligns the phase almost perfectly between the drivers and frequencies.  Even single drivers don't have perfect phase across their whole frequency spectrum because the whole diaphragm doesn't move in the same phase.  Even planers ('stats and orthos) suffer from this to a degree since their diaphragms still have to be anchored somewhere.
 
A single BA already has better phase alignment then all but the best of other kinds of transducers when playing full range since the drivers are so small and easily controlled across their radiating surface.  Multiple drivers and crossovers are two steps forward and one step back.  Each BA is free to operate in a more narrow band, reducing distortion, but without careful design this decreases phase coherence and the crossovers add some phase oddities of their own.  The 3A fixes that problem by adjusting for both the physical arrangement of the drivers and the phase delay caused by the crossovers to achieve what I would bet is unrivaled phase coherence.
 
A Realiser plus a 3A would be a formidable combination indeed.

Correct.  I didn't say the 3A was a Realizer or something it wasn't.  Just that the technology exists and can be implemented.  The 3A is a step forward using active Xovers and DSP to improve SS but is not the end of the road and I'm sure it won't stop there either.  
 
I am having difficulty not asking if Dr. Xin is making these amp boxes but I'll try to refrain.  

 

 

[maverickronin]

Quote:

I am having difficulty not asking if Dr. Xin is making these amp boxes but I'll try to refrain.  

I wonder if that would be fate or just a coincidence?
 
There is hope for the future though!  I've got no idea if this is still valid since the original designer left and may have been lying to Jerry or the hardware may just have changed a bit or something else crazy, but Jerry told me at Canjam the the DSP chip in the 3A would only be using a tiny fraction of its available computing power so its certainly not inconceivable that someone could run a HRTF virtualizer on there too.  And don't forget that Smyth does license their algorithms...

 

[Anaxilus]

Quote:

 
There is hope for the future though!  I've got no idea if this is still valid since the original designer left and may have been lying to Jerry or the hardware may just have changed a bit or something else crazy, but Jerry told me at Canjam the the DSP chip in the 3A would only be using a tiny fraction of its available computing power so its certainly not inconceivable that someone could run a HRTF virtualizer on there too.  And don't forget that Smyth does license their algorithms...

Exactly!  A DSP just for Xovers?  I don't think so....

 

 

[Br777]

jerry has certainly been eluding to plans/possibilities/ideas for making downloadable upgrades, as well as user alterable features available via the USB.
somewhere in this thread someone said that jerry was hoping to offer custom eq's programmable by the user via the DSP/USB
It does seem evident that jerry is intent on taking this thing higher and higher in every way possible. 
 
There are so damn many things to be excited about in this system. 
heck the volume adjustable bass amp is probably going to be a revelation unto itself! 
It really is awesome to know that not only is this rig gonna be incredible, but its going to be capable of being improved upon from within!
 
between the 3A and the solo, it feels like a whole new era in audio is being born. YAHOO!!!
 
unfortunately this means its time to give into the inevitable - its time to start saving for the solo, and begin preparing myself to carry around a little bag worth over $3000+ everywhere i go.  yikes!
 
 
 

 

[Anaxilus]

Quote:

between the 3A and the solo, it feels like a whole new era in audio is being born. YAHOO!!!
 

Portable audio.  Car audio is waaaay ahead of this game though you don't usually here it on the streets.  

 
It is exciting.  I really want my faith in JHA to be restored honestly.  Hire a few more peeps for CS and be knowledgeable, open, honest, TRANSPARENT w/ a process like this.  The actual time delays are irrelevant IMO.  It's the smoke screen and/or incompetence that got to me.  People waiting on this product at this price are not faint of heart or summer soldiers.  As a customer I just want to be looked after and respected.  Simple.  Hope it all works out and maybe I'll pick one of these someday.
 

 

[SoupRKnowva]

not that it really matters, but the demo 3A's at canjam were indeed running off the DSP, the only thing the laptop was being used for was to control the bass and overall volume. this was because the code had not yet been writen to interface the DSP with the switches on the front of the 3A box

 

[digihead]

I have been trying to keep up with the saga, however hopefully someone can answer two basic questions. Is it optical or coax? Is it going to decode USB audio so i can use my iPad and camera connection kit?

 

[swifttal]

not that it really matters, but the demo 3A's at canjam were indeed running off the DSP, the only thing the laptop was being used for was to control the bass and overall volume. this was because the code had not yet been writen to interface the DSP with the switches on the front of the 3A box

Wow soup - man I have no reason do doubt your word... I'm just hoping that's not the case... That would mean that we've been waiting a year for someone to figure out 2 control knobs??? What about having to start from scratch on the software and all that because it wasn't developed enough?!?! If the above was the case it sounds like it would've pretty much been wrapped up, no? It would also mean that not only had they had a fully working dsp prototype, but had also developed a working interface control program too? Am I wayyy off base on my thinking here? Pleeeaaasee tell me I am... For the love of all things sacred