[HPiper]

Quote:

Recabling may have a sense. Here is my story: I was not happy with my HD650 and tried some SPC (Navships) and OFC (Mogami) recabling. I did not like new cables also, both were stiff and bulky, and SPC did not sound good to me. Then I measured my stock cable and... surprise! The cable resistance were pretty different for L and R channels. I assumed that cable is out of order and tried to cure it. I cut the TRS connector off, measured again and found equal resistance, something like 1.5 Ohms. I soldered new connector, listened and was finally satisfied with both SQ and convenience. So the problem was somewhere inside the stock connector.
 
I do believe that my case is not unique. Probably few bad cables were produced (or are still produced) and people really got SQ benefits from the recabling.
 
Would I buy expensive cables if I had right cable from the beginning? No, I'd better invest to the source/amp. I would probably get some expensive cables up to $500 when my source/AMP will reach $5000 mark. 10% for the cables seems reasonable to me.
 
I am still a bit worried with my cable. I am not sure whether 1.5 Ohm is a right resistance for 7 ft cable (I shortened it, it was 10 ft). If it is too much resistance, then there are probably some more "bugs", like bad soldering or anything else. Can anybody advice me on the regular resistance?

For one, it takes an extremely GOOD meter to accurately measure resistances that low, but typically with that short a wire you should be measuring no more than a couple 10ths of an ohm. If you really trust your meter I'd say there is still a problem of some sort but I'll bet its the meter.
 My take on cables is, the only way I can see that it could help is if the new cables are of a gauge or type (silver as opposed to copper) so as to lower the cables resistance. Thereby giving a more direct connection between the amp and driver in the phones. Now would this difference be audible? Maybe but I tend to doubt it. A lot would depend on the phones in question and the amp. As I said in any event I seriously doubt 99% could hear it.

 

[Math-ECU]

As a Noob with very little head-fi experience I was under the impression the headphone cables were like speaker cables...whatever will work...the power cables and such, not so much...I recently auditioned a new amp at Moon Audio and Drew asked me if I would like to try the Black Dragon cables with my 650's.  I voiced my concern over the "mysticism" of cabling.  He said simply, "Listen and decide for yourself".  I thought, well, at least he isn't trying to mumbo jumbo me.  I let him cue up my favorite reference tracks from some CD's I own.  Entering as a skeptic, I exited as a believer.  Will it night and day your experience?  No.  Will it uncover layers with the appropriate setup?  Yes.  I thought, well, the amp, transport, or DAC are the reason, so I had the stock cables put back in and listened again to certain passage portions on Fleetwood Mac and Five Finger Death Punch....That last little bit was actually there with the upgraded cable...Wow!  Did I buy it?  No, The weak link in my chain now are my other components (Think law of diminishing returns as well).  Just my 2 cents from a skeptic to a believer...Just as well, Drew then explained the theory behind why recabling can make a difference....Interesting and a big thank you to him!

 

[bigshot]

With similar sounds, the length of auditory memory measures a few seconds. In order to know whether one is better than the other, you need to set up direct A/B switching.

If that isn't practical, then you need to do double blind testing to tell.

There is no reason properly constructed cables should sound different.

 

[Greenleaf7]

Quote:

Just as well, Drew then explained the theory behind why recabling can make a difference....Interesting and a big thank you to him!

I'm curious to know what was Drew's theory on recabling?

 

[Math-ECU]

Drew will gladly let you know his theory in engineering speak or common, every day speak depending on the route you prefer. Email him through moon audio or on here. .I think the best part of the conversation can be summed up as comparing cabling to a car air filter. The car runs great. You're happy with its performance and its fuel economy. However, when you take it to get the oil changed they replace the gunky air filter. You may not notice the improvement immediately but all of a sudden, you realize you got 10 miles further than normal on a tank and/or your average 0-60 comes down a smidge. There could be other factors at play, but you remember you are no longer choking off your air supply with a dirty filter.
Stock cable-xx gauge, electronic theory geometry is sub par
After market cable qualities depend on gauge, geometry, type of wire to unclog the signal...
**I do not claim to understand well or that these are his exact ideas...if Drew would like to correct me or jump in with his ideas, I would love to read about them**

 

[mikeaj]

It is well established that gauge, geometry, etc. are suboptimal (and much more so for uses other than audio), especially if you ignore cost, but how much is there really to improve? Most engineers for most applications talk in terms of dB. Is he really talking about something that starts with 0.0__, is there something else relevant that changes much more than that, or what?
 
Maybe somebody who can frame the question in the best way to get a response and not a dodge, should ask.

 

[Math-ECU]

It is well established that gauge, geometry, etc. are suboptimal (and much more so for uses other than audio), especially if you ignore cost, but how much is there really to improve? Most engineers for most applications talk in terms of dB. Is he really talking about something that starts with 0.0__, is there something else relevant that changes much more than that, or what?

Maybe somebody who can frame the question in the best way to get a response and not a dodge, should ask.

Law of diminishing returns dictates that such improvements are rarely necessary. However, from my personal experience it is not about dB output, rather it is more about the subjective preferences of the listener. If I could achieve my Nirvana sound at a lower volume I could listen longer and enjoy this state of being. Mumbo jumbo aside, is the marginal benefit worth it for the listener?

 

[xnor]

First you must establish in a controlled listening test that there even are real differences. Then we can talk about the differences, which cable performs better and in what sense.

 

[Math-ECU]

Double Blind testing is key...agreed

 

[bigshot]

With all the things you can do to make your stereo sound better, I don't know why anyone would bother with something that obviously has little or no impact on the sound. If you have to conduct double blind tests to find out if there even is a difference, perhaps you should turn your focus to something that matters instead.

 

[Math-ECU]

Quote:

With all the things you can do to make your stereo sound better, I don't know why anyone would bother with something that obviously has little or no impact on the sound. If you have to conduct double blind tests to find out if there even is a difference, perhaps you should turn your focus to something that matters instead.

 
Let's just say someone has maxed out the benefit from every other portion of their setup and were are 99.9% and they wanted that magical 100%.  You and I may agree that its a waste of time to find differences mainly noticeable only in high tech equipment reading tests, but there are those few that have to have it.  I "heard" a difference in a test, whether perceived or real but don't feel that using the $300.00 for the cable would give me the value I desire in my situation.  I was presented with an offer to try it out and decided to.  I agree more time and effort (money as well) should be spent on more integral components for most, including me. 

 

[bigshot]

I don't believe very many people have maxxed out their ability to improve their system. In fact, I think very few people have even begun. Because achieving the best sound isn't something you get by going out and buying a black box. It involves calibrating your settings carefully to suit your own individual transducers. I see very few people seriously doing that around Head Fi.

You say you heard a difference in a test, but you don't know if it was perception or reality. The whole point of doing a test is to figure things like that out. There is no reason why properly constructed interconnects should sound different. The differences in conductivity between cables is barely even measurable. If I ever heard a clear audible difference between cables, I would immediately jump on it and try to figure out why. It would be a huge anomaly.

It's perfectly fine to want to spend money on nice wires with pretty cloth covering. I like nice wood veneer on my speaker cabinets too. But I'm not going to worry about which veneer sounds better, walnut or maple. Some things make a difference and some don't.

 

[bigshot]

Just to add one more bit to think about... Comparison tests conducted by audio salesmen are highly suspect in my book.

I went to a high end audio store in West LA to audtion speakers. Very highly regarded place. A salesman was helpfully assisting me in the speaker room, switching between models so I could compare them. Nice guy. Very friendly. He had his back to the equipment wall with his hands behind his back, and I noticed a slight movement. I looked and the guy was boosting the bass on the amp behind his back. He was trying to make one model of speaker sound a little bit better than the others. I politely told him that it would be difficult to compare different speakers if he was going to change the tone controls. That guy gave me the dirtiest look and walked away without a word. No salesman in that store would speak to me after that.

Similar experiences happened to me in two other stores. Never trust a used car or stereo equipment salesman.

 

[Math-ECU]

Quote:

I don't believe very many people have maxxed out their ability to improve their system. In fact, I think very few people have even begun. Because achieving the best sound isn't something you get by going out and buying a black box. It involves calibrating your settings carefully to suit your own individual transducers. I see very few people seriously doing that around Head Fi.

You say you heard a difference in a test, but you don't know if it was perception or reality. The whole point of doing a test is to figure things like that out. There is no reason why properly constructed interconnects should sound different. The differences in conductivity between cables is barely even measurable. If I ever heard a clear audible difference between cables, I would immediately jump on it and try to figure out why. It would be a huge anomaly.

It's perfectly fine to want to spend money on nice wires with pretty cloth covering. I like nice wood veneer on my speaker cabinets too. But I'm not going to worry about which veneer sounds better, walnut or maple. Some things make a difference and some don't.

Not disagreeing with you in the least, however, application and theory divulge often times.  I was speaking to theory mainly and the experience I had.  If the cable I tested was 5 bucks I'd jump on it due to my perception, however, its not, and I don't want to spend the time doing the proper testing to see if it does matter, so on to more important components for me.  I love your use of qualifiers- properly constructed.  In my line of work, a properly constructed portfolio should yield results along an efficient frontier (theory), however, in the real world any portfolio will fall below the frontier over time but will revert to a mean within its acceptable variances and standard deviations...Wow..sorry for the monologue, I think we are just speaking to to angles and the same side of the debate....

 

[bigshot]

Building a properly constructed cable is no trick at all. You can buy one at monoprice for a couple of bucks tops. Most cheap Chinese CD players come with perfectly acceptable cables. They might short out faster because the connectors aren't as rugged, but they sound the same.

The important thing to keep in mind is comparing the measured differences to the thresholds of human perception. When you compare cable specs, hearing a difference would be like being the Princess and the Pea. It's just too small to hear.

If you hear a difference that you shouldn't be able to, that should bring up a whole new round of questions... Is something here not working properly? Is my testing procedure not controlled enough to provide accurate results? Have I discovered a brand new scientific phenomina?

That last option is highly unlikely. It's probably one of the first two.