[ingwe]

Quote:

Originally Posted by kwkarth /img/forum/go_quote.gif As it turns out, to my ears, the cryo copper LOD's represent the best of all worlds. They have all of the warmth and general fullness of copper, the superior ductility of copper, and 99% of the high end brilliance and top end extension of silver. You made a great choice! I'm not sure I hear much of a difference between the heavy gauge and the standard gauge cryo LOD, but the heavier one will take more abuse.

Abuse is my middle name, sir!

I'll report back in a few with my observations.

 

[kwkarth]

Quote:

Originally Posted by LawnGnome /img/forum/go_quote.gif Yes. There is also little to no evidence that cyro treated copper makes an audible difference. This flawed thinking though comes from the proven fact that copper does conduct better at extremely low temperatures. However, once the copper is no longer at those low temperature, its properties go back to normal.

FYI, here is a blurb about the Jena Labs cryo process that Ken uses for his cryo copper LOD's.
Quote:

What happens? Exposing metallic objects to this extreme cold causes beneficial molecular changes to occur. As metallic objects cool, they shrink. With the extreme cooling and the shrinkage that follows LN2 immersion, the crystal boundaries of metallic conductors align more closely with one another and become more conductive and quieter. Mechanical integrity is also improved. This improved molecular condition stays intact through the slow warming process and is stable at room temperature. Benefits When conducting an electric signal, treated wire and formed metallic parts will produce less micro-diode-effect noise, less impurity-inclusion field disturbance, and less “slow-field” transverse energy generation. The result is a cable or electrical device that is quieter in noise floor and more revealing of subtle musical nuances. Difficulties Working with LN2 requires very specialized and expensive equipment, and extreme care. It is very dangerous, as the cold is so severe that it can result in serious injury from accidental exposure to the liquid. The process of chilling and warming takes several days to complete and, if done incorrectly, can result in the fracture and loss of the materials being processed. In every phase of the treatment, extreme care must be taken. We feel strongly enough about the musical merits of the treatment, though, that we gladly make the investment in the equipment, the time, and the safety procedures needed to make the benefits available to our customers. Beware of others Cryo-Claims Several audio writers, equipment modifiers, and so-called technologists have promoted refrigeration of cables and electronic parts by packing in dry ice. This is NOT cryogenic treatment. Dry ice has nothing to do with cryogenics. There are a few companies that provide a service employing gas-bath refrigeration in a cold furnace cooled by LN2. If it is a circulation process, these types of furnaces can reach down to about -180° to -240° Fahrenheit, generally speaking. With enough extreme and outrageously expensive effort (economically prohibitive for most providers), vapor circulation can get down to about -280° Fahrenheit. It does not matter what others claim: Getting vapor below -260° Fahrenheit is exceptionally hard. Period. But even that won’t provide a sufficient chill for our standards. Scientifically speaking, cryogenics refers ONLY to temperatures at or below the vapor point of nitrogen: -320.4° Fahrenheit. Our process involves temperatures that are substantially colder than this. Only true liquid nitrogen immersion, as employed by Jena Labs, will fully and permanently enhance the musical behavior of metallic conductors..

 

[philodox]

Quote:

Originally Posted by LawnGnome /img/forum/go_quote.gif Please please do some research on logical fallacies.

Please lose your arrogant condescending attitude. I know what a logical fallacy is, do you? Just because my reasoning does not follow yours does not make it incorrect. Also, you are the one who is trying to prove something to me or force me to prove something to you... I'm not trying to prove anything here, just supporting my opinion.

For what it is worth though, I am also a little skeptical about cryo treatment. The difference here is that I am skeptical because I, as of yet, have no experience with it. If at some point I have access to some liquid nitrogen, I wouldn't mind giving it a go as long as the process is safe for the component being treated.

 

[kwkarth]

Quote:

Originally Posted by LawnGnome /img/forum/go_quote.gif Yes. There is also little to no evidence that cyro treated copper makes an audible difference. This flawed thinking though comes from the proven fact that copper does conduct better at extremely low temperatures. However, once the copper is no longer at those low temperature, its properties go back to normal.

Flawed thinking comes from one assuming one knows everything there is to know about a given subject.

 

[sugarinthegourd]

Quote:

Originally Posted by markl /img/forum/go_quote.gif Many of them do. But think of how much this adds to the cost of manufacture, it's VERY expensive to add 300 hours on a cable. That adds 300 hours "labor" into a product's completion before it can be sold.

Nonsense. It just adds 12.5 days of time to the ship time. So figure out how many cables you want to ship out 2 weeks from now and plug them all into one another with a source at one end and a load at the other. As cables come off the line, you plug them in at the source end and mark the date with a tag. As they come off to ship you take them off the load end. As you add to one end and take off the other end, the cables will move from one end to the other as they age.

Nothing to it, and labor is probably about 2 minutes per cable. Fixed costs are one time: a CD player, an amp, whatever (based on what kinds of cables you're burning) and some dummy loads.

Nothing to it.

However, if cables were sold already burned in, mfrs wouldn't be able to say, "you may not hear the difference at first, but once it burns in (and you get used to the hole in your wallet, and you think about how nice and sexy those FAT silver cables look) you will REALLY HEAR the difference!"

 

[sugarinthegourd]

More info on the crystalline properties of various substances and their effect on sound is available here:

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Some solid materials - most notably, metals & minerals - are comprised of atoms arranged in highly symmetrical, geometric structures called "crystal lattices." These structures are adopted because they constitute the lowest energy states of the atoms in the materials. A simplified crystal lattice structure is illustrated below; electric binding forces are shown interconnecting the atoms in the lattice. A 3-D image of the crystal lattice below can be visualized by allowing your eyes to cross slightly (de-focus) while viewing the two green cubes from a distance of about 18-20 inches from the computer screen. A "virtual" 3-D green cube will form between the other two 2-D images. A more complex arrangement of molecules and atoms within a lattice structure is shown below for Jadeite (sodium aluminum silicate). The temperature of a mineral crystal, as for any material, is proportional to the average kinetic energy of its atoms. External energy forces the atoms in the mineral crystal to move more energetically (i.e., gain kinetic energy); applying heat or mechanical or acoustic energy to the crystal increases the kinetic energy of the atoms and raises the temperature of the crystal. To illustrate how mechanical (including acoustic) energy is converted to heat in a mineral crystal, consider the extreme case of a crystal at a temperature approaching Absolute Zero (-459 degrees F), the lowest possible temperature, when atoms in the crystal lattice maintain their lowest energy positions with very little or no motion whatsoever. Any mechanical energy (e.g., acoustic waves or mechanical vibration), applied to that extremely cold crystal material forces the atoms to begin to vibrate around their equilibrium positions in the lattice - the greater the energy applied, the more energetic the vibration of the atoms. At the same time, the electric forces binding the atoms together begin to stretch and compress slightly to allow for the higher energy configuration; each atom acts as if it were connected to its neighbors by extremely small springs (see animation below). At room temperature the process is the same: energy applied to a crystal at room temperature increases the kinetic energy of the atoms and the potential energy of the compressing/stretching "virtual springs" (electric binding forces). Since the temperature of the crystal is a function of the kinetic energy of its atoms (same as for any material), it follows that the crystal is simply converting mechanical or acoustic energy to heat. The reason Brilliant Pebbles is such an effective "node damper" (energy dissipater) in audio applications is that it transfers energy more efficiently and rapidly than virtually all other energy dissipation type devices.

 

[vcoheda]

Quote:

Originally Posted by kwkarth /img/forum/go_quote.gif Flawed thinking comes from one assuming one knows everything there is to know about a given subject.

i really wish the mods would make one thread titled something along the lines of "do cables sound any different." make it a sticky where these people and others who wants to discuss this stuff - theories, graphs, studies, tests, links, blind tests, mathematical equations, logical fallacies, and whatever else - could go and not annoy the rest of the head-fi community. and other threads in the cable forum would be limited to comments of actual cable use. not theory or any of that other garbage. just impressions and other conclusions based on what he or she has heard.

i know i am not the only one completed frustrated by these people.

end rant/

 

[rsaavedra]

Quote:

Originally Posted by kwkarth /img/forum/go_quote.gif Has everyone stopped to consider that the "enemies of reason" exist on both sides of the aisle of any given issue? Just thought I'd ask. The seeming need for some to force polarization on any issue is an enemy of reason itself. I dare say, one of the most insidious. Mutual respect, acceptance, and a desire to understand are the height of reason. As Dawkins said, "One just doesn't want to be so open minded that one's brain falls out." That's a great quote! Short of that, it's good to be open minded.

x2, Quoted For Truth

 

[kwkarth]

Quote:

Originally Posted by flargosa /img/forum/go_quote.gif I was browsing around head-fi last night and read somewhere that Copper is warmer than silver because more information is lost on transit compared to silver. This information loss smoothens out the naturally harsh digital audio. No one seemed to disagree, is this a fact?

I can't tell you definitively about the "why." Opinions will vary, including mine!

As to the "what," yes, in my experience, most silver interconnects tend to sound brighter to my ears than copper. There are exceptions though, as those noted in this thread.

I once read a great paper that theorized the differing skin effect depth (yes, even at audio frequencies) of copper and silver was responsible for the different sound characteristics. Insulation material also, in my experience has great effect on the sound of a cable, as does construction geometry. Insulation and geometry are interrelated.

This subject is highly contested. As a matter of fact, as you have seen from this thread, many people seem to expend far more energy to contest a subject than what they put into increasing their respective understanding of a given subject. Go figure!

Be cool, always keep an open and curious, but cautious mind.

 

[LawnGnome]

Quote:

Originally Posted by kwkarth /img/forum/go_quote.gif I can't tell you definitively about the "why." Opinions will vary, including mine! As to the "what," yes, in my experience, most silver interconnects tend to sound brighter to my ears than copper. There are exceptions though, as those noted in this thread. I once read a great paper that theorized the differing skin effect depth (yes, even at audio frequencies) of copper and silver was responsible for the different sound characteristics. Insulation material also, in my experience has great effect on the sound of a cable, as does construction geometry. Insulation and geometry are interrelated. This subject is highly contested. As a matter of fact, as you have seen from this thread, many people seem to expend far more energy to contest a subject than what they put into increasing their respective understanding of a given subject. Go figure! Be cool, always keep an open and curious, but cautious mind.

And other's just like to sit back and believe things which lack any evidence. Guess its easier to be willfully ignorant. Like Thomas Gray wrote, "ignorance is bliss"

Open minded does not mean accepting without evidence, being open minded is accepting what does have evidence, even when it contradicts previous beliefs.

Go figure.

 

[Febs]

Quote:

Originally Posted by vcoheda /img/forum/go_quote.gif could go and not annoy the rest of the head-fi community.

You assume that the "rest of the head-fi community" thinks as you do, which of course is a fallacy. Like any large community, there are a wide variety of opinions and perspectives here.

And, frankly, it would be a very boring place if everyone thought the same thing.

 

[kwkarth]

Quote:

Originally Posted by LawnGnome /img/forum/go_quote.gif And other's just like to sit back and believe things which lack any evidence. Guess its easier to be willfully ignorant. Like Thomas Gray wrote, "ignorance is bliss" Open minded does not mean accepting without evidence, being open minded is accepting what does have evidence, even when it contradicts previous beliefs. Go figure.

So are you just here to argue? I'll give you your second statement, it's been echoed many times in this very thread, I guess you just had to repeat it, but your first statement....Even if you had a point to make, you're cutting off the ears of your potential audience before they get a chance to even hear you! I think that qualifies as colossall, imperious, and willful ignorance.

 

[Icarium]

Zu Mobius is indeed silver plated copper.

 

[LawnGnome]

Quote:

Originally Posted by kwkarth /img/forum/go_quote.gif So are you just here to argue? I'll give you your second statement, it's been echoed many times in this very thread, I guess you just had to repeat it, but your first statement....Even if you had a point to make, you're cutting off the ears of your potential audience before they get a chance to even hear you! I think that qualifies as colossall, imperious, and willful ignorance.

Maybe you should stop trying to incite people. You may word things fairly carefully, but it is still clear you are trying to provoke people. Especially this line:

Quote:

As a matter of fact, as you have seen from this thread, many people seem to expend far more energy to contest a subject than what they put into increasing their respective understanding of a given subject. Go figure!

You accuse others of going to far for making similiar statements, but yet you are the moderator. You represent this forum, if your going to make things personal, maybe you should only be representing yourself.

This is a forum, forums are created for discussion, mainly debate.

However, it appears that the "skeptics" opinions are not allowed to be discussed freely.

The believers tell the "skeptics" to not post in threads. Yet nothing is done. Members tell the skeptics to "let them have their fun" and not express their opinions on cables.

But I guess half of this communities beliefs are worth less if they are a "skeptic".

EDIT: You'll "give" me my second statement eh? Did not know that people needed your permission to make statements. As for the rest of what you said, I don't think I really need to say much on that, it pretty much speaks for itself, probably not how you would of liked however.

 

[bigshot]

Quote:

Originally Posted by kwkarth /img/forum/go_quote.gif This subject is highly contested. As a matter of fact, as you have seen from this thread, many people seem to expend far more energy to contest a subject than what they put into increasing their respective understanding of a given subject.

I've spent plenty of time researching audio technology. I've been a hifi nut for nearly 30 years. I've spoken to numerous recording engineers. I do comparison testing of all the equipment I use. Nothing has ever indicated that there is any need to spend more on cables than what Radio Shack charges for its standard grade (not gold) cables.

The only evidence I've ever heard in favor of high end cables is sales pitch by companies with an interest in selling audio equipment, and anecdotal comments from high end cable users who claim to hear a difference. The sales pitch is often littered with "tech-speak" and unsubstantiated claims. The anecdotes are often full of vague romanticized descriptions and exaggerated reports of the degree of difference. Taken together, they are contradictory- some say white- others black- some say big difference- others say small.

I've listened and I've done my homework. I'm not sticking my head in the sand. It's my experience that cables are high profit items used by stereo salesmen to plus equipment sales. The pseudo-scientific justifications for cables don't stand up to science and they don't stand up to controlled testing. It's not helpful to people without experience in this hobby to recommend high end cables. Just a couple of days ago, a fella posting here with an iPod shuffle and a $90 headphone amp asked for advice about interconnects, and people were recommending cables that cost as much as his source and amp. To me, that is lousy advice, and I'm going to post saying that, whether cable believers like it or not.

It's great that people report their own experiences here. But if they are unable to think logically, and they aren't able to argue fairly without resorting to fallacies, nothing they say means anything. It's a lot more justified to reject an anecdotal report based on faulty logic than it is to just say, "Your ears/equipment are lousy." I agree with LawnGnome that the root of the problem is the inability to think logically. It isn't the cable skeptics who are resorting to ad hominem attacks and circular arguments. We're just the ones that the ad hominem attacks and circular arguments are aimed at.

See ya
Steve