[xenithon]

meat01 - I wholeheartedly agree that there are skeptics, especially if there is no (possibly scientific) explanation as to what changes in the wire. I really cannot tell you as I have no clue. I have perceived changes in sound, in cables and other equipment. As a reviewer once said however, perhaps it is not the equipment breaking in, but the listener breaking into the equipment's sound.

 

[philodox]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Febs /img/forum/go_quote.gif The point is that when I see Tiger hit the ball 300 yards, he's actually demonstrated that he can do, and not just made unverifiable claims. If you say, "I can hear a night and day difference between cables," that is the equivalent of the person who says "I can hit a golf ball 1000 yards and I don't need to prove it to you because I say that I can do it." There is no way for me to hear what you are hearing, so your claim is unverifiable.

I understand what you are trying to say, but it is really more like this:

"I can hear a difference between cable 1 and cable 2."

"Tiger woods looks different when I look at him through a red colored lens or a green colored lens."

Also, you are right, I don't feel that I need to prove anything to anyone. This is the main difference between the stance of most skeptics and most 'believers' [or at least myself]. I am stating an opinion and am not trying to convince anyone of anything. Joe Skeptic comes in and tells me I am wrong because of his theories. He hasn't heard the cables I've heard in my system, but he is trying to convince me that I'm wrong.

I'm sure you can see how this would get a little irritating.

EDIT: Just to confirm, I'm not talking about you in this scenario... just trying to relate a common situation when cable differences get brought up. Quote:

Originally Posted by Febs /img/forum/go_quote.gif If, on the other hand, you can actually identify a cable in a controlled listening test, then you've done the equivalent of taking me out to the golf course and hitting the ball 1000 yards. Note that I am not claiming that you can or cannot hear a difference between cables. All I am saying is that (1) in the absence of a controlled test, the claim is unverifiable, and (2) the fact that I can't hear what you claim to be able to hear is not evidence that you can hear it.

Well that is nice, you are in the minority there I think. I appreciate the fact that you respect my opinion even though you don't necessarily agree with it.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Febs /img/forum/go_quote.gif I hope that your first sentence wasn't directed at me. It is certainly not my intention to ridicule you or anyone else.

No, not at all. There are certainly some good examples in this thread however.

Sovkiller - If you really want I can past a long list of quotes which I feel are ridiculing my beliefs, but I think you know what I am talking about. After a point sarcasm can't really be your only excuse.

markl - Nice description, I agree with most of what you said. I also think that the difference between silver and copper is blown out of proportion and that other factors make a greater impact on the sound of the cable.

xenithon - Solderless connection? I doubt that would be a good idea. I agree that not all silver cables sound 'bright', and that is one of the myths perpetuated. I doubt that there is any difference between 4N or 5N silver, and am reasonably sure that is one of the watchout signs for snakeoil peddlers.

 

[sugarinthegourd]

Quote:

One downside of silver cable is that it takes a very long time to burn-in and settle down. Furthermore, companies can find a way to do silver right - but it may take 300+ hours to settle down, which not everyone will be willing to wait for. And as we all know, first impressions count!

One has to wonder: since burn-in is such a problem: why don't these companies burn their products in for 300+ hours before they ship to the customer? It would be very easy to do, and tremendously beneficial to the customer, who can simply plug in the new item and be wowed by the improvement, without having to wait a long time for burn-in and rely on unreliable persistence of memory to gauge the improvement. Given the prices the cables go for it doesn't seem unreasonable that they be sold with all necessary burn-in already done. It's like, if I'm paying a premium price for produce, I would prefer that it be ripe!

 

[LawnGnome]

Quote:

Originally Posted by philodox /img/forum/go_quote.gif I understand what you are trying to say, but it is really more like this: "I can hear a difference between cable 1 and cable 2." "Tiger woods looks different when I look at him through a red colored lens or a green colored lens." Also, you are right, I don't feel that I need to prove anything to anyone. This is the main difference between the stance of most skeptics and most 'believers' [or at least myself]. I am stating an opinion and am not trying to convince anyone of anything. Joe Skeptic comes in and tells me I am wrong because of his theories. He hasn't heard the cables I've heard in my system, but he is trying to convince me that I'm wrong. I'm sure you can see how this would get a little irritating. EDIT: Just to confirm, I'm not talking about you in this scenario... just trying to relate a common situation when cable differences get brought up.Well that is nice, you are in the minority there I think. I appreciate the fact that you respect my opinion even though you don't necessarily agree with it. No, not at all. There are certainly some good examples in this thread however. Sovkiller - If you really want I can past a long list of quotes which I feel are ridiculing my beliefs, but I think you know what I am talking about. After a point sarcasm can't really be your only excuse. markl - Nice description, I agree with most of what you said. I also think that the difference between silver and copper is blown out of proportion and that other factors make a greater impact on the sound of the cable. xenithon - Solderless connection? I doubt that would be a good idea. I agree that not all silver cables sound 'bright', and that is one of the myths perpetuated. I doubt that there is any difference between 4N or 5N silver, and am reasonably sure that is one of the watchout signs for snakeoil peddlers.

None of your analogies are valid. Oh why do people not know what logical fallacies are?

It is sad to watch people reject science for blind faith. It seems to happen more and more in many areas of life.

This entire hobby is built on electric principles, why is it they are thrown out when it comes to cables?

 

[bigshot]

Poetry is fine, but if you want to communicate ideas behind sound not just behind feelings about sound, you'll talk about dynamics, frequency response, distortion, speed fluctuation, channel separation, phase and signal to noise.

I'm going to attempt to translate the comment I quoted. Hopefully, I'll get it right.

Silver is not necessarily bright and thin.

Translation: Silver is able to reproduce frequencies in a balanced way.

Many poor executions of silver sounds edgy and grainy.

Translation: Bad silver cables can cause distortion. (or introduce noise?)

But well implemented silver is not bright - it is deep, dense, weight

Translation: Able to reproduce low frequencies?

yet highly resolving.

Translation: Lack of distortion? (doesn't alter the shape of the waveform)

How is that?
Steve

 

[ingwe]

Quote:

Originally Posted by kwkarth /img/forum/go_quote.gif If this was meant as humor, ok, a feather for your cap, but if meant as sarcasm, find another chicken coop to peck about in, because you're all wet.

Humor. I'll take an African Grey Parrot tail feather please.

 

[philodox]

Well, the ignore list is pointless... I can still see the post there. Quote:

Originally Posted by LawnGnome /img/forum/go_quote.gif None of your analogies are valid. Oh why do people not know what logical fallacies are?

Excuse me? I made one analogy there. The point of laying it out that way is to show that a variable is being introduced into the situation and that a difference is perceived. All these "seeing tiger hit a ball" analogies make no sense.

I could also say that I see differently with my glasses off or on, or that things feel different when I wear gloves or that my spaghetti sauce tastes different when I add cayenne pepper. Quote:

Originally Posted by LawnGnome /img/forum/go_quote.gif It is sad to watch people reject science for blind faith. It seems to happen more and more in many areas of life. This entire hobby is built on electric principles, why is it they are thrown out when it comes to cables?

I don't reject science, whatever gave you that idea?

 

[LawnGnome]

Quote:

Originally Posted by philodox /img/forum/go_quote.gif Well, the ignore list is pointless... I can still see the post there.Excuse me? I made one analogy there. The point of laying it out that way is to show that a variable is being introduced into the situation and that a difference is perceived. All these "seeing tiger hit a ball" analogies make no sense. I could also say that I see differently with my glasses off or on, or that things feel different when I wear gloves or that my spaghetti sauce tastes different when I add cayenne pepper.I don't reject science, whatever gave you that idea?

Please please do some research on logical fallacies.

 

[ingwe]

I just bought an iPod classic 160 and am using it with a diy LOD using stranded copper, with each strand "coated" in silver (23 guage). The LOD plugs into my RSA Hornet. Phones are Shure E500 and Senn HD-650.

Compared to my Zune with same setup (substituting a mini-to-mini with same wire), the iPod is more forward brighter, and slightly fatiguing . Right now, I prefer the Zune. But the jury is still out.

A couple hours ago I decided the weak link in all this was the LOD. I built it myself and it was a total PIA to solder the wire to the dock pins. Thus I went to the ALO site and made a guess of which LOD might be appropriate. I chose the jumbo cyro (all copper) instead of the silver offering because I thought there might be better synergy.

Now, its possible I'm just buying into stereotypical (whether true or not) perceptions that silver is brighter, copper is warmer or whatever, but I could only justify purchasing one cable (especially at those prices). So I made a choice.

Eventually, I hope to get to some meets and evaluate stuff personally. Nothing beats personal experience.

-m
(I wonder if my ALO would last longer with low salt, low fat broth? ;p )

 

[Superpredator]

Quote:

Originally Posted by bigshot /img/forum/go_quote.gif I'm going to attempt to translate the comment I quoted. Hopefully, I'll get it right. How is that? Steve

Absolutely god awful.

Quote:

Silver is able to reproduce frequencies in a balanced way.

This couldn't be more ambiguous. "Balanced" may encompass not being bright and thin, but it certainly doesn't mean not being bright and thin.

Quote:

Bad silver cables can cause distortion. (or introduce noise?)

Edginess and grain can be independent of distortion. It's easy to confuse them. I guess obviously.

Quote:

Able to reproduce low frequencies?

It's possible to have deepness, density and weight in most of the frequency range, not just in the lows. Well not so much deepness perhaps, but definitely density and weight.

Quote:

Lack of distortion? (doesn't alter the shape of the waveform)

I don't know how else to say it - lack of distortion and highly resolving are not the same thing!

 

[kwkarth]

Quote:

Originally Posted by ingwe /img/forum/go_quote.gif Humor. I'll take an African Grey Parrot tail feather please.

While I admire your taste in tail feathers, I'm afraid all this one qualifies for is chicken feathers.

 

[markl]

Quote:

One has to wonder: since burn-in is such a problem: why don't these companies burn their products in for 300+ hours before they ship to the customer?

Many of them do. But think of how much this adds to the cost of manufacture, it's VERY expensive to add 300 hours on a cable. That adds 300 hours "labor" into a product's completion before it can be sold. You have to have a cable cooker for each cable you want to burn in. That would make doing this prohibitively expensive for a targeted $100 cable, think about it.

 

[LawnGnome]

Quote:

Originally Posted by ingwe /img/forum/go_quote.gif I just bought an iPod classic 160 and am using it with a diy LOD using stranded copper, with each strand "coated" in silver (23 guage). The LOD plugs into my RSA Hornet. Phones are Shure E500 and Senn HD-650. Compared to my Zune with same setup (substituting a mini-to-mini with same wire), the iPod is more forward brighter, and slightly fatiguing . Right now, I prefer the Zune. But the jury is still out. A couple hours ago I decided the weak link in all this was the LOD. I built it myself and it was a total PIA to solder the wire to the dock pins. Thus I went to the ALO site and made a guess of which LOD might be appropriate. I chose the jumbo cyro (all copper) instead of the silver offering because I thought there might be better synergy. Now, its possible I'm just buying into stereotypical (whether true or not) perceptions that silver is brighter, copper is warmer or whatever, but I could only justify purchasing one cable (especially at those prices). So I made a choice. Eventually, I hope to get to some meets and evaluate stuff personally. Nothing beats personal experience. -m (I wonder if my ALO would last longer with low salt, low fat broth? ;p )

Yes. There is also little to no evidence that cyro treated copper makes an audible difference.

This flawed thinking though comes from the proven fact that copper does conduct better at extremely low temperatures. However, once the copper is no longer at those low temperature, its properties go back to normal.

 

[kwkarth]

Quote:

Originally Posted by ingwe /img/forum/go_quote.gif I just bought an iPod classic 160 and am using it with a diy LOD using stranded copper, with each strand "coated" in silver (23 guage). The LOD plugs into my RSA Hornet. Phones are Shure E500 and Senn HD-650. Compared to my Zune with same setup (substituting a mini-to-mini with same wire), the iPod is more forward brighter, and slightly fatiguing . Right now, I prefer the Zune. But the jury is still out. A couple hours ago I decided the weak link in all this was the LOD. I built it myself and it was a total PIA to solder the wire to the dock pins. Thus I went to the ALO site and made a guess of which LOD might be appropriate. I chose the jumbo cyro (all copper) instead of the silver offering because I thought there might be better synergy. Now, its possible I'm just buying into stereotypical (whether true or not) perceptions that silver is brighter, copper is warmer or whatever, but I could only justify purchasing one cable (especially at those prices). So I made a choice. Eventually, I hope to get to some meets and evaluate stuff personally. Nothing beats personal experience. -m (I wonder if my ALO would last longer with low salt, low fat broth? ;p )

As it turns out, to my ears, the cryo copper LOD's represent the best of all worlds. They have all of the warmth and general fullness of copper, the superior ductility of copper, and 99% of the high end brilliance and top end extension of silver. You made a great choice! I'm not sure I hear much of a difference between the heavy gauge and the standard gauge cryo LOD, but the heavier one will take more abuse.

 

[ingwe]

Quote:

Originally Posted by LawnGnome /img/forum/go_quote.gif Yes. There is also little to no evidence that cyro treated copper makes an audible difference. This flawed thinking though comes from the proven fact that copper does conduct better at extremely low temperatures. However, once the copper is no longer at those low temperature, its properties go back to normal.

Could be. I do hope to subjectively determine sound quality to my ears one way or the other by direct observation. But the cyro wasn't the only reason; more important was a *very* well built cable made by a very experienced technician.