[peelax]

I agree aaron-xp, I would actually quite like nice cables in the same way I would like a nice watch. But as Dawkins states the truth is important!

Even water dowsers went through the unmentionable procedure in that documentary, it was obvious from the experiment that it does not work......

 

[markl]

Back on topic, FWIW, I think the alleged diffreences between the sound of copper and silver interconnects are over-stated.

When silver wire was first introduced by a few manufacturers, they were given a stereotypical sound by members of the audio press and early adopters (i.e. "bright, brittle, and thin"). This pre-conception about the sound of silver cables vs. copper cables ("warm, fat, and rolled off") has carried over to today in an almost caricature-like way.

But this initial observation was based on a few early samples of silver wire, and back when even the fanciest copper cables were nearly as sophisticated as they are today. Nowadays, there are plenty of examples of silver cables that "don't sound silver" and copper cables that don't sound like copper. A cable is far more than the type of metal used for the wires; they are the sum total of all the design choices, materials used, geometry selected, dielectrics used, shielding (or no shielding) used, connectors selected, etc.-- they all have an impact.

Nevertheless, do I think these metals have some sort of inherent sound signature? Yes. Given a choice between two identically constructed cables, one with copper wires and one with silver, I will choose the copper cable every time. However, given two totally different cables with radically different designs, knowing whether one was silver or copper would not help me much in my decision making. I would need to listen to both.

Another thing-- scarcity on planet earth, and arbitrary value placed on certain metals by people who like bright shiny objects does not mean one metal sounds "better" than another or is naturally a superior conductor. It does not follow that because gold is more expensive, that gold-conductor cables automatically sound better than silver.

Use your ears and listen to the whole cable, and worry less about what kind of metal is being used, you may be surprised by what you like and don't like.

 

[dura]

Long ago I visiited a Dutch forum, where some annoying young 'engineer' kept on spoiling every threath about cables by accusing everyone who claimed to hear differences between cables in their system of selfdelusion. Not a very polite thing to do I think, accusing people of imagining things,
Annyway, he kept on challenging people to DBT.
Since I did not want this fellow in my house I declined, being quite sure of what I hear and like (and yes, I know about selfdelusion, a lot, having a MD psychology).
Others were less strong and gave in, and it turned out they were quite able to differentiate between their cables in their system with their music, less then 10% errors with 3 cables.
Differenting between unknown cables in unknown systems I would not risk, but in my system only someone who is completely deaf would not hear the difference between my DIY braided silver cables and f.i. my AQ Coral.
I do not need blind tests for that, just as I do not need DBT to differentiate between my parents, thank you.

 

[ingwe]

I dipped copper stranded wire in cold and warm chicken broth for 10 minutes. While both were fowl, with an overall golden coloration, the cold broth was more clinical sounding while the warm broth was less forward.

 

[markl]

Quote:

I dipped copper stranded wire in cold and warm chicken broth for 10 minutes. While both were fowl, with an overall golden coloration, the cold broth was more clinical sounding while the warm broth was less forward.

Thanks for an outstanding and amazingly mature "contribution" to our forum.

Exactly the kind of drivel that is supposed to be wiped from this forum. Yes, let's do an experiment and see what the mods do about it.

 

[kwkarth]

Quote:

Originally Posted by ingwe /img/forum/go_quote.gif I dipped copper stranded wire in cold and warm chicken broth for 10 minutes. While both were fowl, with an overall golden coloration, the cold broth was more clinical sounding while the warm broth was less forward.

If this was meant as humor, ok, a feather for your cap, but if meant as sarcasm, find another chicken coop to peck about in, because you're all wet.

 

[peelax]

I don't think this thread has been spoilt, the original question was:

Quote:

Is copper warmer because of signal loss? I was browsing around head-fi last night and read somewhere that Copper is warmer than silver because more information is lost on transit compared to silver. This information loss smoothens out the naturally harsh digital audio. No one seemed to disagree, is this a fact?

There are at least two questions really.

Firstly does copper when compare to silver have some property that makes it lose more audible "signal"? Well I don't think there is any evidence to support this theory (please provide some?).

Secondly is copper warmer? Some people claim (subjectively) it is, I however have not seen any corroborated and objective evidence to support this theory either. Therefore I think it should be assumed (at the moment) that there is, in practice, no audible difference between copper and silver cables.

Of course if evidence is presented to the contrary...

 

[vcoheda]

Quote:

Originally Posted by peelax /img/forum/go_quote.gif I don't think this thread has been spoilt.

these threads are always spoiled and it seems to always be by the same people.

 

[LawnGnome]

Quote:

Originally Posted by aaron-xp /img/forum/go_quote.gif A random thought: Premise 1 Audio is mainly about personal enjoyment Premise 2 Enjoyment comes from many avenues Premise 3 Placebo effect gives enjoyment Conclusion Placebo effect in cables is fine, as long as the listener doesn't mine paying for it It may sound ridiculous (still does to me), but why not?

That would be fine however, if people accepted that it is placebo.

It is not whether or not people say they hear a difference which gets people going. It is that people start claiming its because of some unmeasurable properties. And making claims that go against modern physics, and even basic reasoning.

I personally think the biggest fuel to the fire is, when people claim they can prove it, but yet come up with reasons why they don't.

As that usually gets people really going no matter what the topic is.

 

[LawnGnome]

Quote:

Originally Posted by vcoheda /img/forum/go_quote.gif these threads are always spoiled and it seems to always be by the same people.

How exactly do you expect such a thread to progress then? Look at any thread, on any forum, where the topic has two strongly opposing views, and you will see the same thing.

 

[xenithon]

I had a recent email discussion with a friend of mine regarding this topic. Some pertinent points were made which I think may be useful here:

Silver is not necessarily bright and thin. Many poor executions of silver sounds edgy and grainy. But well implemented silver is not bright - it is deep, dense, weighty, yet highly resolving. The more people try silver though, the more opinion seems to split.

It is related to:
(a) purity of silver - e.g., 5N is better than 4N
(b) the method of aging and annealing (metallurgy related so quite complex and difficult to
(c) the wiring configuration
(4) the termination (I believe solderless is best for silver?)

We thus should not be surprised if you find silver cables that are anything but thin or bright. One downside of silver cable is that it takes a very long time to burn-in and settle down.

Furthermore, companies can find a way to do silver right - but it may take 300+ hours to settle down, which not everyone will be willing to wait for. And as we all know, first impressions count!

 

[bigshot]

Quote:

Originally Posted by xenithon /img/forum/go_quote.gif Silver is not necessarily bright and thin. Many poor executions of silver sounds edgy and grainy. But well implemented silver is not bright - it is deep, dense, weight, yet highly resolving.

None of those descriptions mean a doggone thing. Could you please put that into terms that apply to sound, not ones that define tactile feelings, mass or vision. We're talking about sound. Use terms that describe sound.

Thanks
Steve

 

[markl]

Quote:

None of those descriptions mean a doggone thing.

To you. To anyone who has spent more than 10 seconds in this hobby (or has an ounce of intuition or common sense) knows *exactly* what these terms mean. There are audio glossaries on the web that will define them so even you can understand.

"Writing about music is like dancing about architecture". Words are inherently insufficient, but they are all we have, and a plethora of by now very well-understood terms has been developed to describe audio. Get to know them.

 

[xenithon]

Quote:

None of those descriptions mean a doggone thing. Could you please put that into terms that apply to sound, not ones that define tactile feelings, mass or vision. We're talking about sound.

Got up on the wrong side of bed, hey? And since when have descriptions of audio equipment EVER been limited to strictly characteristics of sound? In any case, hope your day gets better as you go along. And for clarification, my perspective on the terms (which may certainly differ from person to person):
Deep = extension and depth in the audio spectrum, particularly deep, impactful bass
Dense/Weighty = full-bodied. Often refered to as being warm, sometimes euphonic.
Highly Resolving = details; audio minutiae; musical cues and intricacies.

 

[meat01]

Quote:

Furthermore, companies can find a way to do silver right - but it may take 300+ hours to settle down, which not everyone will be willing to wait for. And as we all know, first impressions count!

These are the claims I don't understand and we skeptics question. What actually happens in those 300 hours that makes it "settle down" as you put it? What physical changes are taking place and how do they affect the sound in an audible way?

Trying to contribute to the discussion in a positive way, but what is keeping me from claiming that coat hangers make better interconnects than copper and silver?