[LawnGnome]

Quote:

Originally Posted by bigshot /img/forum/go_quote.gif I've spent plenty of time researching audio technology. I've been a hifi nut for nearly 30 years. I've spoken to numerous recording engineers. I do comparison testing of all the equipment I use. Nothing has ever indicated that there is any need to spend more on cables than what Radio Shack charges for its standard grade (not gold) cables. The only evidence I've ever heard in favor of high end cables is sales pitch by companies with an interest in selling audio equipment, and anecdotal comments from high end cable users who claim to hear a difference. The sales pitch is often littered with "tech-speak" and unsubstantiated claims. The anecdotes are often full of vague romanticized descriptions and exaggerated reports of the degree of difference. Taken together, they are contradictory- some say white- others black- some say big difference- others say small. I've listened and I've done my homework. I'm not sticking my head in the sand. It's my experience that cables are high profit items used by stereo salesmen to plus equipment sales. The pseudo-scientific justifications for cables don't stand up to science and they don't stand up to controlled testing. It's not helpful to people without experience in this hobby to recommend high end cables. Just a couple of days ago, a fella posting here with an iPod shuffle and a $90 headphone amp asked for advice about interconnects, and people were recommending cables that cost as much as his source and amp. To me, that is lousy advice, and I'm going to post saying that, whether cable believers like it or not. It's great that people report their own experiences here. But if they are unable to think logically, and they aren't able to argue fairly without resorting to fallacies, nothing they say means anything. It's a lot more justified to reject an anecdotal report based on faulty logic than it is to just say, "Your ears/equipment are lousy." I agree with LawnGnome that the root of the problem is the inability to think logically. It isn't the cable skeptics who are resorting to ad hominem attacks and circular arguments. We're just the ones that the ad hominem attacks and circular arguments are aimed at. See ya Steve

Bigshot, don't let it get to you, its obvious he is trying to bait people now.


I think what we have asked for is completely valid when talking about products which can cost so much.

Proof.

It is a plain and simple request. Both kwkarth and pageman99 have stated they have actual evidence (that is within the realms of physical laws) that can prove their views. Why not post it?

 

[Chu]

edit : whoops, maybe I should have read of all what I was replying too. Vapor baths are expensive to set up, but the difficultly is being a bit exaggerated in that blurb.

 

[bigshot]

I'm not at all upset.

There are two levels of proof required:

1) Cables alter the signal
2) That alteration makes an audible difference

See ya
Steve

 

[germanium]

I make my own cables for componants that have higher output impedance as there the capacitance in the cabling becomes a factor in the sound at those higher impedances. My cables spec out at about 50pf per meter even with the terminations attached which adds some capacitance. The lowest I seen other wise is 95pf per meter. Even at 95pf there was a very very slight deadening of the sound even on well recorded piano. The more the capacitance the worse it got.

The computer has a very low output impedance relative to most separate componants though & therefor don't seem to suffer this problem. Consequently even Radioshacks standard grade works absolutely wonderfull here.To me it makes no difference copper or silver just the capacitance to output impedace.

 

[kwkarth]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Chu /img/forum/go_quote.gif edit : whoops, maybe I should have read of all what I was replying too. Vapor baths are expensive to set up, but the difficultly is being a bit exaggerated in that blurb.

They clearly state they're not using a vapor bath.

 

[kwkarth]

Quote:

Originally Posted by LawnGnome /img/forum/go_quote.gif Maybe you should stop trying to incite people. You may word things fairly carefully, but it is still clear you are trying to provoke people. Especially this line: You accuse others of going to far for making similiar statements, but yet you are the moderator. You represent this forum, if your going to make things personal, maybe you should only be representing yourself. This is a forum, forums are created for discussion, mainly debate. However, it appears that the "skeptics" opinions are not allowed to be discussed freely. The believers tell the "skeptics" to not post in threads. Yet nothing is done. Members tell the skeptics to "let them have their fun" and not express their opinions on cables. But I guess half of this communities beliefs are worth less if they are a "skeptic". EDIT: You'll "give" me my second statement eh? Did not know that people needed your permission to make statements. As for the rest of what you said, I don't think I really need to say much on that, it pretty much speaks for itself, probably not how you would of liked however.

I suppose that if I told you you made many incorrect assumptions in this post alone that I would be accused of "inciting" you. So I'll just let you figure it out for yourself. I never condoned or encouraged spending lots of money on expensive cables. A good cable does not have to be expensive to be good. Two different things. From the tone of your post, it appears that you're interested in argument. I'm not. I have repeatedly asked you to be civil. Others here have asked that you drop your condescending tone. You're a 20 year old kid, so I suppose it's too much to ask or hope for. Too bad, you might otherwise have something to add to this discussion.
Skeptics are welcome, jerks are not.

 

[Chu]

Quote:

Originally Posted by kwkarth /img/forum/go_quote.gif They clearly state they're not using a vapor bath.

I just reread that again . . . and I wish I could unedit my post, because what I mistakenly though at first glance was actually correct. This is just a LN2 immersion.

LN2 immersion is dirt cheap. A 10L dewar flask is about $100 used, $500-$700 new. LN2 is not a controlled substance, you can get it most chemical supply houses.

A custom-built cryocan suitable for cables (i.e. a very long box) could be done DIY for, I would guess, under $500. This is assuming they actually do that -- if they just coil up the cable and stick it in a cryo can (think very fancy thermos), you can get a fairly large used one for $500ish. Brand new in the $1K range.

The running costs are dirt cheap, basically just the cost of the LN2.

The paragraph is fairly deceptive because a refrigerator designed to cool to close but not quite LN2 temperatures would actually be much more expensive.

You know, considering how much some people value cryo treatement, it might actuially be fairly profitable to do this as a side buisness . . .

Cryo-cans
Dewar Flaks

 

[kwkarth]

Quote:

Originally Posted by bigshot /img/forum/go_quote.gif I've spent plenty of time researching audio technology. I've been a hifi nut for nearly 30 years. I've spoken to numerous recording engineers. I do comparison testing of all the equipment I use. Nothing has ever indicated that there is any need to spend more on cables than what Radio Shack charges for its standard grade (not gold) cables. The only evidence I've ever heard in favor of high end cables is sales pitch by companies with an interest in selling audio equipment, and anecdotal comments from high end cable users who claim to hear a difference. The sales pitch is often littered with "tech-speak" and unsubstantiated claims. The anecdotes are often full of vague romanticized descriptions and exaggerated reports of the degree of difference. Taken together, they are contradictory- some say white- others black- some say big difference- others say small. I've listened and I've done my homework. I'm not sticking my head in the sand. It's my experience that cables are high profit items used by stereo salesmen to plus equipment sales. The pseudo-scientific justifications for cables don't stand up to science and they don't stand up to controlled testing. It's not helpful to people without experience in this hobby to recommend high end cables. Just a couple of days ago, a fella posting here with an iPod shuffle and a $90 headphone amp asked for advice about interconnects, and people were recommending cables that cost as much as his source and amp. To me, that is lousy advice, and I'm going to post saying that, whether cable believers like it or not. It's great that people report their own experiences here. But if they are unable to think logically, and they aren't able to argue fairly without resorting to fallacies, nothing they say means anything. It's a lot more justified to reject an anecdotal report based on faulty logic than it is to just say, "Your ears/equipment are lousy." I agree with LawnGnome that the root of the problem is the inability to think logically. It isn't the cable skeptics who are resorting to ad hominem attacks and circular arguments. We're just the ones that the ad hominem attacks and circular arguments are aimed at. See ya Steve

Please tell me who has attacked you? I and a number of others here have confessed to hearing differences in cables. Is that what you construe as an attack on you personally? On anybody? On any school of thought or theory? I prefaced my post by clearly stating that there is no proven scientific evidence in the realm of general knowledge that supports being able to hear differences. Is that some sort of an attack? I've encouraged people to listen for themselves and encouraged them to keep an open mind and to refrain from trying to polarize people. Do you construe that as an attack of some kind? Why do some people seem to be so hyper sensitive? What are people so afraid of?

 

[LawnGnome]

Quote:

Originally Posted by kwkarth /img/forum/go_quote.gif I suppose that if I told you you made many incorrect assumptions in this post alone that I would be accused of "inciting" you. So I'll just let you figure it out for yourself. I never condoned or encouraged spending lots of money on expensive cables. A good cable does not have to be expensive to be good. Two different things. From the tone of your post, it appears that you're interested in argument. I'm not. I have repeatedly asked you to be civil. Others here have asked that you drop your condescending tone. You're a 20 year old kid, so I suppose it's too much to ask or hope for. Too bad, you might otherwise have something to add to this discussion. Skeptics are welcome, jerks are not.

This is exactly what bigshot was talking about when he was speaking about ad hominem. Attacking the person, not their argument.

If I wanted to speak on your own age, I could easily say that you are much older, and should be much wiser. But yet still do not appear to have the same ability of reason as I do "a 20 year old kid".

So, What I will ask for, again, since you have dodged this before,

Post the link to the article you read proving that cables make an audible difference.

Also, what is your problem with debate? If everyone who had opposing views just conceded, we would not progress. Debating (arguing) forces people to hone their arguments, which in turns forces them to improve their reasoning.

If we did not debate this topic, the believers would continue with their beliefs, and the skeptics would continue to be skeptical.

Neither side would question their ideas, as neither side would be required to research or do any thinking into the matter.

As more and more of these threads emerge, people will think more and more into the topic, growing the communities knowledge on this subject. And eventually someone will discover and prove once and for all whether or not there is a difference.

If you think that these sorts of advances come about with people just going about with their beliefs unchallenged, think again. Historically, this is how scientific advances occur.

This is how ideas grow.

 

[kwkarth]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Chu /img/forum/go_quote.gif ... You know, considering how much some people value cryo treatement, it might actuially be fairly profitable to do this as a side buisness . . .

There you go! A new business is born! Actually, there's a bit more to the construction of the Jena Labs wire than just cryo treatment. Yes, a lot of the ad copy is hyperbole, what marketing schtick isn't? The stuff sounds good though. I could never see myself paying their prices for their interconnects. I personally use a lot of Outlaw Audio copper interconnects. Good build quality & great bang for the buck sound-wise IMHO. The only Jena wire I have is in my ALO LOD's, and yes, I do hear a difference. Have I ever done true double blind testing? No. I have done statistically significant blind testing though, enough to convince me that it's more than simply placebo effect. But that's just me. I'm happy with my rig, so please try to not be too upset with me and my hapiness. Thanks!

 

[kwkarth]

Quote:

Originally Posted by LawnGnome /img/forum/go_quote.gif This is exactly what bigshot was talking about when he was speaking about ad hominem. Attacking the person, not their argument. If I wanted to speak on your own age, I could easily say that you are much older, and should be much wiser. But yet still do not appear to have the same ability of reason as I do "a 20 year old kid". So, What I will ask for, again, since you have dodged this before,

I have never dodged anything. What, specifically, are you referring to?

Quote:

Originally Posted by LawnGnome /img/forum/go_quote.gif Post the link to the article you read proving that cables make an audible difference.

There is no "link." To what link are you referring? Do you think I read some hyperbole somewhere that somehow convinced me of something I didn't heretofore believe in? Re-read all my posts in this thread carefully. You'll see that I heard what I could not explain. I did not read some explanation of something I couldn't hear.
Quote:

Originally Posted by LawnGnome /img/forum/go_quote.gif Also, what is your problem with debate? If everyone who had opposing views just conceded, we would not progress. Debating (arguing) forces people to hone their arguments, which in turns forces them to improve their reasoning. If we did not debate this topic, the believers would continue with their beliefs, and the skeptics would continue to be skeptical.

I have no problem with honest, open minded debate.
Quote:

Originally Posted by LawnGnome /img/forum/go_quote.gif Neither side would question their ideas, as neither side would be required to research or do any thinking into the matter.

What? Not sure I follow your line of thought here.

Quote:

Originally Posted by LawnGnome /img/forum/go_quote.gif As more and more of these threads emerge, people will think more and more into the topic, growing the communities knowledge on this subject. And eventually someone will discover and prove once and for all whether or not there is a difference.

That would be wonderful! I bet you know the outcome already too, no?
Quote:

Originally Posted by LawnGnome /img/forum/go_quote.gif If you think that these sorts of advances come about with people just going about with their beliefs unchallenged, think again. Historically, this is how scientific advances occur.

Give me a break. Who do you think you're talking to?

 

[LawnGnome]

Quote:

Originally Posted by kwkarth /img/forum/go_quote.gif I have never dodged anything. What, specifically, are you referring to? There is no "link." To what link are you referring? Do you think I read some hyperbole somewhere that somehow convinced me of something I didn't heretofore believe in? Re-read all my posts in this thread carefully. You'll see that I heard what I could not explain. I did not read some explanation of something I couldn't hear. I have no problem with honest, open minded debate. What? Not sure I follow your line of thought here. That would be wonderful! I bet you know the outcome already too, no? Give me a break. Who do you think you're talking to?

Now you are, once again, just lowering the level of the debate.

Your use of sarcasm amuses me though, considering YOU sent me a PM warning me and informing me you deleted my posts for their sarcasm.

But since you don't seem to be able discuss things very well, I see no point in continuing with you.


Anyone who enjoys organized, or any, debating actually, knows a person has no defense when they resort to ad hominem. Which you have time and time again resorted to.

You really need to step back and look at things before you fire off another reply. You are starting to look very very foolish.

Quote:

Originally Posted by kwkarth /img/forum/go_quote.gif I once read a great paper that theorized the differing skin effect depth (yes, even at audio frequencies) of copper and silver was responsible for the different sound characteristics. Insulation material also, in my experience has great effect on the sound of a cable, as does construction geometry. Insulation and geometry are interrelated.

 

[rb67]

What this thread has turned into:

 

[bigshot]

Quote:

Originally Posted by kwkarth /img/forum/go_quote.gif Please tell me who has attacked you?

I really don't care if people attack me. It just makes them look bad. But if you'd like, I'll let you know when someone does. It happens every few days from the same three or four posters.

See ya
Steve

 

[chesebert]

Quote:

Originally Posted by rb67 /img/forum/go_quote.gif What this thread has turned into:

x2

Isn't that the case every time?