[MtnMan307]

AKG mids, particularly arn't good. Tonally, K7XX is sub par. Their tonality is skewed toward bass shy and treble emphasis, lackibg the presence region as well.

I don't find the Massdrop K7XX bass shy at all, it has a detailed, well-extended, and strong low end IMO. Especially for $200 I think the bass is one of the strong points of this can. The mids are never going to beat the 650. I have both and the 650 is famous for its midrange detail and performance with vocals.

Both the 650 and K7XX are definitely amp/gear dependent. The K7XX in particular needs the right amplifier for a good synergy IMO.

 

[SilverEars]

I don't find the Massdrop K7XX bass shy at all, it has a detailed, well-extended, and strong low end IMO. Especially for $200 I think the bass is one of the strong points of this can. The mids are never going to beat the 650. I have both and the 650 is famous for its midrange detail and performance with vocals.

Both the 650 and K7XX are definitely amp/gear dependent. The K7XX in particular needs the right amplifier for a good synergy IMO.

I found the bass not being present so much is due to the large cups. I guess the cup room size opens up for sound stage, but for me good bass presence is necessary, and also the upper-mids presence for details. AKG 7 series upper mids to treble doesn't transition well enough to obtain the fuller imaging of the music.

There's so much information in the upper-mids that it's probably the most crucial in keeping the imaging intact.

I found AKG 7 series not to make much difference on source. Senny 6 series on the other hand does have significant dependency on source amping.

 

[SilverEars]

I had both the Sundara and the 4XX at the same time, did a direct compare. I wouldn't argue that the Sundara isn't better than the 4XX... but they are close.

Agree with you completely on the Beyers and tonality. However.... the Amiron Home does not have the typical Beyer sound. Lots of reviews, check it out. Here's a helpful one:

Josh is a good cinematographer. Reviews? Not really. There's plenty of impressions I don't agree of his.

I hope you're right about Amiron because Beyers created a reputation of their sound.

 

[BritaMineral]

Thanks for all the responses!

@MtnMan307 - With my limited stable of current gear, I couldn't see myself going for something that was distinctly lacking in mids. It's too much a function of what I like to listen to at the moment, and your mention of it being semi-amp-dependent doubles down on my "maybe some other time" attitude. As I mentioned in the original post, I only have the Fulla 2 to work with. If I could play with a few different amps I might be of another mind about it. I appreciate the suggestion though!

@Jodet / @SilverEars - I think every time I heard someone say that these two Hifiman models were close, the next person I read/watched seemed to make a point to say that anyone saying they were close was wrong. The only consistency seems to be that no one has enough bad things about either for me to make a clean ruling on where my money's gonna go.

To ask a sort of obtuse question: Is the Sundara twice as good (for the money) as the He4xx? Or are we now at the price-point where I need to be on the lookout for obviously diminishing returns? (Is this what people mean when they talk about Mid-Fi Hell?)

 

[Jodet]

Thanks for all the responses!

@MtnMan307 - With my limited stable of current gear, I couldn't see myself going for something that was distinctly lacking in mids. It's too much a function of what I like to listen to at the moment, and your mention of it being semi-amp-dependent doubles down on my "maybe some other time" attitude. As I mentioned in the original post, I only have the Fulla 2 to work with. If I could play with a few different amps I might be of another mind about it. I appreciate the suggestion though!

@Jodet / @SilverEars - I think every time I heard someone say that these two Hifiman models were close, the next person I read/watched seemed to make a point to say that anyone saying they were close was wrong. The only consistency seems to be that no one has enough bad things about either for me to make a clean ruling on where my money's gonna go.

To ask a sort of obtuse question: Is the Sundara twice as good (for the money) as the He4xx? Or are we now at the price-point where I need to be on the lookout for obviously diminishing returns? (Is this what people mean when they talk about Mid-Fi Hell?)

Is the Sundara twice as good? Not IMHO. Money is not much of an issue for me - I could easily have kept the Sundaras and sold the HE4XX's. I'm happy with the HE4XX's. To get a real bump, in my experience... it's the Amirons. That's three times the money of the HE4XX's.

 

[BritaMineral]

Yeah, I don't have that luxury currently. Spending +$500 on headphones is... well, I'm sure one day I'll get there, but in my current situation it seems almost ludicrous.

(EDIT: It's worth mentioning that I'm considering the Sundaras because at the time of this posting they're on sale for $350, and I've found several used pairs marked down from even that.)

I guess it's also sort of worth asking if the Sundaras are (as much as this could be quantified) twice as good as either my current Grados, or the Ath-m50x. I know lower-tier Audio Technica stuff doesn't get a lot of love around here, but it's my only other real point of comparison.

 

[Jodet]

Yeah, I don't have that luxury currently. Spending +$500 on headphones is... well, I'm sure one day I'll get there, but in my current situation it seems almost ludicrous.

I guess it's also sort of worth asking if the Sundaras are (as much as this could be quantified) twice as good as either my current Grados, or the Ath-m50x. I know lower-tier Audio Technica stuff doesn't get a lot of love around here, but it's my only other real point of comparison.

The HE4XX's are wonderful and I'm sure you would really enjoy them. I have a friend in the business who has a ton of gear (no, seriously... like a warehouse) and he uses HE4XX's for headphone listening and loves them.

 

[SilverEars]

Looks like Amiron shares the same traits of other Beyers. Look at the upper-mids dip and then the rise in the treble, or peaks there.

 

[Jodet]

I love it when people who haven't actually heard something try to tell people how it sounds.

 

[SilverEars]

I love it when people who haven't actually heard something try to tell people how it sounds.

I just posted a graph and talked about the graph, and you're not going to convince me to hear it. Google the headphone and find the forum that talks about it's peaks. There's a group impression on it.

 

[Wheel Hoss]

Having owned Sundara and 400-i, I can say yes Sundara is twice as good.

Sundara has technicalities that compete with $1,000 headphones. It is BY FAR the best value in headphones atm at the sale price of $350.

Also build quality on Sundara is ages ahead of 400 series. All metal vs plastic. I think if you get the 400 you’ll just regret it and get the Sundara someday.

 

[SilverEars]

I don't understand how you ended up with those 3. 6XX is definately worthwhile in a collection, pretty much a must IMO. Performance and price is just good. If you are budget concious, 58X is a very solid option, but down the road, you may upgrade to the 6XX and why not just get the 6XX and save the hassle?

A used HE500 is another good price per performance planar. I'd chase that over the other Hifimans.

As you can see, our opinions varies. There are too many variables that causes our opinions. Best to listen to the headphone if possible.

 

[MtnMan307]

The 650/6XX is a very famous headphone and you would probably like it out of the Fulla 2. It has some of the best mids around and is very well regarded for vocals along with acoustic guitars and other instruments. It scales up very well with better/more powerful gear. The Vali 2 is a step up and the Jotunheim is another step up with the 650, it pairs well with the balanced connection. 650s take a lot to sound their best IMO, but it's also hard to make them sound bad.

K7XX does not lack mids. The midrange is good, just not euphoric or legendary like the 650's mids. It also sounds all right out of the Fulla 2, but excels with the Vali 2. I would listen to both headphones if possible as SilverEars mentioned.

 

[bagwell359]

Having owned Sundara and 400-i, I can say yes Sundara is twice as good.

Sundara has technicalities that compete with $1,000 headphones. It is BY FAR the best value in headphones atm at the sale price of $350.

Also build quality on Sundara is ages ahead of 400 series. All metal vs plastic. I think if you get the 400 you’ll just regret it and get the Sundara someday.

The Sundara is not twice as good as a 400i or 4xx. It's better, but twice? It's not supportable.

A good used HE-500 buries all of the HFM mentioned so far for $350-400. Considering what the originator is doing - trying to find his way, then used seems like a viable idea. Also the HFM HEX v2 can be had used for $650-725, and that smokes the Sundara as well.

The Senn HD-600 is a great can available used for chump change - but its not hugely different from his Grado except the treble. Runs well on hybrid amps as well as SS

I agree with SilverEars - the Beyer house sound features big treble peaks, AKG's do a lot right, but never heard one that makes me think I'm listening to music.

 

[MtnMan307]

AKG's do a lot right, but never heard one that makes me think I'm listening to music.

I just got a refurbished pair of 1970s AKG K240 Sextetts, late production version. They cost me all of $68 on eBay. Not recommended for the OP, they are 600 ohms, but they are pretty amazing for the price. Insanely good for metal music. They make a great 3rd or 5th headphone if you have a good amp to drive them. Vali 2 will actually do a good job.