[McRat]

After a good night sleep and reading through these posts again (especially JefferyK) has had me thinking that maybe the problem isn't so much in gear. Maybe it's more about the way I am listening to music. It's the so called "critical listening" that I'm having trouble with. The more casual the situation, the more I seem to enjoy music.

I've never heard Miles Davis "Kind of blue" the way I heard it two nights ago, when we had some friends over. I just put Miles on the platter and we sat around the table eating something with some fine wine. Although the music was playing quite loud for backround music, it never bothered anyone, not even the guy sitting closest to the speaker. Even my wife said she liked Miles' music, making me pick up my jawbone from the floor.

Perhaps the "better" gear just forces me to listen more carefully. It's all the extra details that draw my attention away from the music as a whole. It's really like I can't see the woods with all the trees blocking my view

Listening habits aside, as I dislike most of my current gear I still have the problem of finding the optimum solution for me. I do have to play my music through some equipment you know!

I have had the pleasure of reading some articles by a very good writer from the only finnish hifi magazine "Hifi-lehti". The author is Kari Nevalainen and although he has been in this hobby a long time and I only a few years, I share many of his thoughts about the purpose of hifi gear. All those who are interested, should read his autobiography from the 6moons Audio website. Here's an interesting chapter:

"...I believe that our task as HiFi hobbyists is not so much to reproduce slavishly what's stamped on the record nor to simulate the original soundfield of the recording venue as it is to do whatever it takes to make the music feel correct. That is, I allow for degrees of freedom and unorthodox solutions where purists would cry foul. (One of my favored systems of tone control is swapping cartridges - easy when the cartridge is in a shell). As to what determines how good and true music feels, I side with those who emphasize the importance of the time domain (speed and dynamics). Considerations of tone color and harmonics are not irrelevant either but I'm not allergic to every tiny coloration that impairs timbre and definition. Soundstage and imaging are least interesting to me as long as there's enough air in the sound."

I don't know how to better put it in words. The guy does have some marvellous gear, but he does prefer vinyl, tubes and FR speakers. Dunno about his headphones though. Some food for thought...

 

[McRat]

I do realize that my posts sound somewhat schizophrenic, as I'm dissing hifi and at the same time trying to find some replacemet gear for my current setup. But as I said in my previous post, I do have to have some kind of equipment to at least hear the music! On the other hand I'm trying to change my listening habits. I guess I'm battling this problem on two fronts at the same time.

ephemere:
Thanks for the warning. I guess I should try them before buying, but I have this morale problem with my local Grado distributor. I don't feel comfortable testing the phones at his shop if I have no intention of buying from him. I guess I'll just try to snatch a pair and then sell 'em if I don't like 'em.

Blitzula:
I can't say if I'm more a speaker guy, as my experience is quite limited in both fields (cans/boxes). I guess I just realized rather quickly that I'm going in the wrong direction.
Btw, how are you liking those SR-80 anyway?

bigshot:
Yes, it is kind of sad. Not sure about the weird part though. It seems I'm not the only one... Thanks for the tip on the joint though!

 

[Kurt]

It seems you didn’t found the sound you like, yet.
Maybe tubes, Grado’s, Sony’s or another source. Maybe a combination of that. If I were you, I would buy used gear to test it out. With used gear you don’t loose much money, if at all, when you sell the ones you don’t like.

 

[Cerebral_Mamba]

Quote:

bigshot No headphones can add "feeling and emotion"... You need new music, not new equipment. Try asking a friend who knows a lot about a kind of music you've never listened do before for some recommendations. The more different, the better. You can go out and buy more equipment, but you'll be just as bored. See ya Steve

Now is your golden opportunity to get into some Sitar assult with Pandit Ravi Shankar

Quote:

McRat After a good night sleep and reading through these posts again (especially JefferyK) has had me thinking that maybe the problem isn't so much in gear. Maybe it's more about the way I am listening to music. It's the so called "critical listening" that I'm having trouble with. The more casual the situation, the more I seem to enjoy music.

Somewhat in the line of what i was thinking. I really used to enjoy a lot of music, which after receiving my higher end gear got limited to the ones that "SOUND" good as opposed to being good. When I had cheap gear, all music sounded grained and murky; then without any prejudice I could enjoy the music. Now, my brain tells me that song with bigger soundstage and 320kbps recording is better than the 128kbps zero-soundstage music. The good news is that from the day I analyzed & realized this, I started enjoying my music all over again.

 

[nickchen]

Quote:

Originally Posted by JefferyK I used to write music reviews. After doing that for a few years, I found myself unable to enjoy music. As soon as I'd start listening, I'd start crafting sentences in my head, describing the sound, interpreting the lyrics, making associations. It started to drive me nuts. So I quit writing reviews. ... I learned a lot when I was on my upgrade path, the most important thing being: If you don't step off, you will be on it forever. Imagine a lifetime of listening to "gear." Good grief, shoot me now!

Jeffery, you are a very wise man.
We all live in the tension between "to be" and "to have". Danger is great in forums like ours that we move to much towards the sickish direction of collecting properties.
You perfectly pointed out what that means for the way we listen to music. We stop to feel the music because we're too busy to analyse how this and that detail is pictured by our gear that we are so proud to possess. Regarding this, I think I'm an a bad way either.

 

[ken36]

Good thread. Very informative. Thanks.

 

[McRat]

Quote:

Originally Posted by nickchen Jeffery, you are a very wise man. We all live in the tension between "to be" and "to have". Danger is great in forums like ours that we move to much towards the sickish direction of collecting properties. You perfectly pointed out what that means for the way we listen to music. We stop to feel the music because we're too busy to analyse how this and that detail is pictured by our gear that we are so proud to possess. Regarding this, I think I'm an a bad way either.

Very well said. I too found Jefferys comments to have some serious wisdom. I have considered moving away from these kinds of forums just to stop dreaming about new gear. All the FOTM and other praise for our new toys is building up discontempt in my current gear. That isn't saying that my current gear isn't wrong for my tastes. I just have to find my thing and then disengage myself from these wicked forums

Maybe this thread would feel more home at the Member's Lounge...

 

[setmenu]

When I have am tuning a system to my tastes ,I do not expect to enjoy the music
whilst going through the process, rather like a piece of artwork I reach
a moment when I abandon rather finish the work and just listen to the music.
Though the cut off point is rarely decisive and I can find myself slipping between
analyzing and enjoying over quite a period of time.
As I enjoy tinkering with audio gear, one trick I have is to have a system to
listen to and another to tweak.
This does a nice job of dividing the hobby into the two distinct areas of
music and gear enjoyment.
My main tinkering projects tend to be portable with diy elements.

Perhaps the thing to do is just ignore the 'main' system for some time and
listen with portable, car stereo etc and let the thrill of good music recharge the soul.
When recharged if returning to the system is still a less than satisfying experience perhaps
the refreshed mind will have an easier time identifying
the issues.

 

[Cerebral_Mamba]

Quote:

Originally Posted by JefferyK I used to write music reviews. After doing that for a few years, I found myself unable to enjoy music. As soon as I'd start listening, I'd start crafting sentences in my head, describing the sound, interpreting the lyrics, making associations. It started to drive me nuts. So I quit writing reviews. ... I learned a lot when I was on my upgrade path, the most important thing being: If you don't step off, you will be on it forever. Imagine a lifetime of listening to "gear." Good grief, shoot me now!

True in all its sense. But like that line I like "There's a difference between knowing the path and walking the path". Myself, and I believe other budding audiophiles who have not yet found our perfect gear, have to reach that point of satisfaction where we have something agreeable at hand. Then only I guess I'd be able to put your wisdom founded on life's experience to my benefit. Till then...

 

[Jahn]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Cerebral_Mamba True in all its sense. But like that line I like "There's a difference between knowing the path and walking the path". Myself, and I believe other budding audiophiles who have not yet found our perfect gear, have to reach that point of satisfaction where we have something agreeable at hand. Then only I guess I'd be able to put your wisdom founded on life's experience to my benefit. Till then...

I have to agree with this. In pursuit of Feeling the Ru, it's taken awhile to get the "rig" the way I like it. But now, it's all about grabbing music everywhere and feeding it to the beast! Long live $.99 Clapton Unplugged CDs on Amazon!

 

[JaZZ]

Quote:

Originally Posted by setmenu When I am tuning a system to my tastes, I do not expect to enjoy the music whilst going through the process, rather like a piece of artwork I reach a moment when I abandon rather finish the work and just listen to the music. Though the cut-off point is rarely decisive and I can find myself slipping between analyzing and enjoying over quite a period of time. As I enjoy tinkering with audio gear, one trick I have is to have a system to listen to and another to tweak. This does a nice job of dividing the hobby into the two distinct areas of music and gear enjoyment. My main tinkering projects tend to be portable with diy elements. Perhaps the thing to do is just ignore the 'main' system for some time and listen with portable, car stereo etc. and let the thrill of good music recharge the soul. When recharged, if returning to the system is still a less than satisfying experience, perhaps the refreshed mind will have an easier time identifying the issues.

Good approach IMO.

It also shows that audiophilia (inevitably?) encompasses a certain degree of sound/gear fetishism and analiticalness which has to be fought against from time to time.

On the other hand, I don't understand people who can seriously enjoy (!) classical music (and Jazz, to some degree) through crappy systems and kitchen radios. Yes, maybe if your approach at that moment is similar to reading a book instead of watching a movie, so you have to use your fantasy to complete all the unsaid and the whole scenery -- which is indeed fun, if you ask me! --, but I can't find the same satisfaction and sense with listening to distorted music and imagining how it might have sounded in the concert hall. Yes, the essential of the composition may be preserved anyway, but consider that many -- especially modern -- compositions also live from the sound and sonic subtleties, not just the notes. To put the analogy to the extreme: you could postulate musical enjoyment from reading sheets of music for the really mature music lover without any fetishist obsession. Or enjoying fancy foods according to sophisticated recipes, but with absolutely loveless preparation.


Quote:

Originally Posted by McRat Lately it seems that all this hifi nonsense has actually taken the fun away from my music and I cannot justify that. As it stands, I feel I'm getting a bit tired to this "hifi" sound I get from my british speakers and current phones. The more I put money on the gear, the less I enjoy the music. It lacks the feeling, the essential emotion of the performance. Well, I finally gave up on searching and reading through old threads. I guess I'm hoping to get that final push to some direction. I also know that the best thing would be to listen to any candidates, but that is sadly not an option for me at the moment. Some background information: I do have K501 and DT531, but I find them both lacking in some degree. The K501 are great phones but I miss the punch and the bottom end. DT531 on the other hand sounds a bit too mushed and bloated. I thought I would find "the magic" from the K501 midrange, but the lack of punch isn't fun at all. Maybe I'm missing the famous PRaT? I listen to almost all kinds of music, ranging from jazz and female vocals to gothic-/classic-/progressive rock and then again to classical music in all it's forms. However, I do find the PX100 and KSC75 highly enjoyable, though lacking in finer detail. Is there a phone that would maintain the fun aspects of these small and punchy wonders while still giving me the extra refinement and glory of the higher-end gear? I recently aquired some extra cash by letting some of my gear go, so now I only need to decide which phones to get. My budget is limited to ~$400. I have wanted to try some Grado/Alessandro for the fast presentation, but at the ridiculous prices around here I'm really forced to order them from the US and thus thinking mainly about MS-2i. I've also been thinking about HD650 and DT880. These I would get easily from Europe at reasonable prices. So the price is not an issue between these. I'm very thankful for any comments. Other recommendations are of course welcome.

There's certainly no correct recipe for your situation, which I absolutely can reproduce, since I know it from own experience. First you have to be aware that flawless music reproduction at home isn't possible. So if you can't tame your analyticalness, you'll never get satisfaction. On the other hand, I suspect that what's wrong in your setup is an incoherence. I don't think your speakers or headphones are to blame in first instance. Maybe they're just too good (= too reveiling) for the flawed signal they're fed with? Sure, the K 501 undeniably lacks bass (also to my ears), although otherwise it's a fine headphone. But the characteristic of its imperfection wasn't exactly to my taste, so I went the HD 600 --> DT 880 --> HD 650 route. Which could be worth considering in your case, too. But still I think the rest of your system might be the bottleneck.

 

[McRat]

So basically while some of you recommend stepping out from the upgrade track, others are saying that the only way to reach musical satisfaction is to personally follow that same track all the way. I guess I was hoping to find a sidetrack or a shortcut, but that doesn't seem possible in the light of this thread.

I guess I'll have to try and audition every single interesting piece of gear, and maybe even some of those that feel uninteresting at the moment. We really should have more head-fi meets in Finland. And of course enjoy my KSC-75 in the meanwhile. T00bs are quite high on the list, as are some Grados. I sure have to spend some time with the HD650 too. Although I really want to get into vinyl, I don't think it's a good idea with two very energetic children running around the house.

I do have a custom-designed and -built integrated speaker-headphone-amp with built-in DAC coming up soon. I'm hoping this will liven up things in the upstream. I still think I'll snatch a pair of Grados or Alessandros, even just for an audition. Shouldn't be too hard to resell those in Finland.

 

[RedLeader]

I know I'm not a huge audiophile or have been around here for awhile, but quite honestly I find the way to combat audio boredem is simply to change. I have a very nice car setup that I love (NOT tweaked to perfection, it makes it more "fun" that way to my ear, I enjoy it more) to listen to my digital music on. When I'm at home on my computer, I'll listen to digital music in my headphones, but I can't take it for very long, especially after a drive. Fire up the tube amp, put on a record and listen. After that, which I enjoy immensely, I can again listen to my digital music. I dont know why this works for me, but I find it an enjoyable way to keep listening fresh.

 

[McRat]

RedLeader, that sounds like a fun approach! I do have some sort of a setup in almost every room in my home, mostly vintage receivers and such, so that's something I might be able to do quite easily. I really do have to find myself a tube amp!

 

[JaZZ]

Quote:

Originally Posted by McRat So basically while some of you recommend stepping out from the upgrade track, others are saying that the only way to reach musical satisfaction is to personally follow that same track all the way. I guess I was hoping to find a sidetrack or a shortcut, but that doesn't seem possible in the light of this thread.

As I see it, you're a music lover who wants to enjoy music in its whole spectrum, thus including the sensual aspect. Your current dissatisfaction with «hi-fi sound» is an other expression of this, as well as the low-fi route idea trying to avoid the flaws revealed by your current imperfect setup reminding halfways on real music by massively reducing your sonic demands. This detour -- tried by others before you -- will automatically lead you back to a new startup towards high fidelity (not to be mixed up with hi-fi), maybe with different preconditions. I don't think that your «sidetrack» exists, but the shortcut does: it means spending lots of money at once.