I'm lobbying to stop IC's
Mar 10, 2006 at 6:41 AM Post #46 of 77
Kirosia,

OH, hehehe, seems I interpreted that differently than you did... If we were all a little more tollerant and understanding of each other, things like genocide would be less prevelant or (hopefully one day) cease to exist.

If he did mean it the way you read it then, no of course not, those are social injustices and hate crimes. I'm talking about not getting so upset over things that essentially aren't hurting anyone. If it's something that merely offends your eyes, divert them, close them, or just walk away... If it's something that harms you or someone else, that's a whole different matter.

If we're going to put a stop to anything and everything that offends anyone, then we might as well all just keel over and die now...
 
Mar 10, 2006 at 7:05 AM Post #48 of 77
Quote:

Originally Posted by DieInAFire
you mean like genocide and rape and civil strife in Africa?



Yeah, that's right up their with the inhumane injustice of selling Headphone gear.

rolleyes.gif


-Ed
 
Mar 10, 2006 at 8:06 AM Post #50 of 77
I really don't see the problem with an interest check. People do it for a variety of reasons. As long as the seller is up front about their intentions I don't see what the big deal is. Some people just want to see if they can get a really good offer while others just want to know what the market value is. If someone isn't sure whether they want to sell or not I think they should say that up front. Personally, I'm doing an interest check because I want to do a trade but I don't really have anything in particular I want in return. There are a few things I want so I don't really see any other way to handle it than to do a IC and see what kind of offers I'll get.
 
Mar 10, 2006 at 9:05 AM Post #51 of 77
Quote:

Originally Posted by matt8268
2. My main frustration with IC is the idea that the seller isn't sure whether he wants to sell or not. You see buyers go to all this trouble to email offers and get interested, and then the seller says, "I've decided I can't part with it." or "I found a way to afford keeping my item AND buy the new thing I want". I just think your widget should either be for sale or not for sale. Of course occasionally someone will change his mind, but the frequency of ICs is just ridiculous.


I think I've done an IC once, and that one time was exactly the situation you describe above where there was a price that I might sell the item at, but I was still on the fence about selling the item. I really don't see what you're complaining about. Inherent in an IC itself is uncertainty, and anyone who responds to an IC should do so with that in mind. Furthermore, if you think typing a couple of sentences and pressing a couple of buttons is too much trouble, I wonder what you think of life outside of head-fi. There have been a multitude of threads concerning all aspects of the "for sale" forum, and the one thing I've noticed in all these types of threads that bothers me a lot is this notion that a buyer, just because he/she is a buyer, automatically is in a position of entitlement. Unless there is something to suggest that a party is particularly vulnerable, buyers and sellers should be treated equally, which means not only with equal respect but also equal restraint.

Quote:

3. I totally agree nobody should stamp SOLD over the price of their FS ads. Add SOLD, but don't remove the price. This one totally baffles me, I'm not sure why people do it.


Because people do not read carefully. There have been many times where I've been contacted by head-fiers about buying an item I put up for sale after the transaction was completed and the thread was edited accordingly. Just last week or so, someone contacted me asking if I was still selling some headphones even though I clearly stated in the thread that they were given away. I think the naturally tendency we have when we click on for sale threads is to skim for the price. If you remove and replace the price with "SOLD," that pretty much clears up any confusion. Because of so much complaining going on here about this issue, I've actually resorted to stamping in red "Sold!" several times throughout my for sale threads while leaving the prices intact. Regardless, I still get PMs from careless readers once in a while. How they miss a couple of red "Sold!" notations surrounding a price is beyond me, but it happens.

Additionally, the price you find in those threads isn't exactly accurate either since many times the buyer and seller will negotiate a price that is less than the listed price. At most, perusing past for sale threads will only give you a rough ballpark figure for how much something is worth, but I think that is something that most of us already know. For instance, if I buy a pair of MS1s for $99, use them for a week, and decide to sell them, I don't think any of us would price it at $50. We'd figure that it's used but almost new so a price b/n $80 and $90 should suffice.
 
Mar 10, 2006 at 3:21 PM Post #52 of 77
Quote:

Originally Posted by jjcha
Heh, sorry mate, just my tendency of using 3 words when just 1 would do the better. And your understanding of economic analysis is 100% correct.

I guess what I'm pointing to is more behavioral, in that when sellers quote a high, but optimistic price, and then need to lower their bids, that gives information that their good isn't in demand. That gets buyers optimistic that they can get it for a lower price. It's not difficult to imagine a situation where seller A quotes a price of $1200 but has to lower it to $1100, $1000, and finally $900 before finding a buyer. But seller B, if they quote a straight price of $1000, would find a buyer at that price.

I'm not fully committed to this, but my guess is that this dynamic works to the detriment of sellers more than it does to buyers. In other words, when a buyer offers $800 in a WTB (which rarely happens), and then has to raise it to 900 or 1000, the anchoring impact isn't as strong as it is when a seller has to sell.

Regardless, the discussion is going elsewhere. BTW, it is not inconsistent that some sellers choose to publish prices regardless of the fact that they never quoted an asking price.
biggrin.gif


Best,

-Jason


That's one of the clearest explanations I've seen here in or anywhere else in a long time.
 
Mar 10, 2006 at 3:35 PM Post #53 of 77
Quote:

Originally Posted by Jasper994
I've never understood why so many people get their panties in a twist over things they don't like but can easily ignore...
confused.gif



Because it is fun and actually kind of healthy. I am rarely ever truly angry about anything but a lot of things do annoy me and sometimes just telling others about it and getting some commiseration out of it helps. In fact I was just going to post a rant about the growing number of people on the headphones part of the forum who've never listened to a headphone basically just asking for people to recommend a headphone. For pete's sake, people at the very least should buy a $12 koss ksc-75 so they can get some reference point or go find some place that sells headphones so they can give some a try before asking for advice. See, I feel better already.
icon10.gif
In the larger scheme of things you are completely right but wouldn't the world be a less entertaining place without the rant?
 
Mar 10, 2006 at 5:38 PM Post #54 of 77
I tried to read this thread diligently so I apologize if this has already been said.....

IMO, IC's are a blatant attempt to circumvent the rules of the forum....period.

Every IC I've seen has been used as a mechanism to be able to post a sale thread on these boards for profit without invoking the wrath of the moderators. Other forums have banned IC's for exactly this reason.

If the moderators decide that "non-members of the trade" CAN make a profit on the sale forums...then fine with me. But up to now it has not been allowed....so IC's have effectively been used to bring ebay to our forums.

The argument of using IC's as a decision making tool as to whether you actually want to sell or not does not hold water with me.....unless you're an indecisive fourth grader (in that case you should ask your parents if it's OK
biggrin.gif
).

If you want to be convinced whether to sell, post a "for sale" thread with a juicy price you would like to see. Then let the regular economic process kick in.
 
Mar 10, 2006 at 5:43 PM Post #55 of 77
Quote:

Originally Posted by jjcha
See, that's kind of my point. Please explain to me why the following statement isn't equally true:

"yea they are lame. its not that hard to research and figure out an offer price. You can always just set it lower than what you think and keep raising it if u must."

I'm not saying one is better than the other - just that both are valid ways of finding what the market is willing to bid or ask for a good.

Best,

-Jason


Are you kidding? Because if I were to throw out a really LOW offer price out there and someone bit, it would be wrong for me to disregard his/her offer to buy at the price I put it at. My FS posts are not an auction - this isn't ebay. Maybe I'm not interpreting your post correctly.
confused.gif
 
Mar 10, 2006 at 6:49 PM Post #59 of 77
Quote:

Originally Posted by Gorthon
So lets say a person does not not know the market value of a particular item.

Why couldn't that person ask the question in the Equipment Category Forums section?

I think it all boils down to laziness and/or being afriad to post your asking price.


Why can't they just post an IC and find that out without wasting webspace creating a thread that will do the exact same thing?

I think what this all boils down to, IMO, is that the people that are opposed to IC's have certain control issues. That is, in essence, you'll want to control the way things are run for your own benefit. You want to keep people from making "a more than average amount of money" for selling their item so that YOU can benefit by getting a lower price in the future. That really is what this is all about. How else could you possibly be opposed to something like this? Just FEI, it's not anyone's business what a seller and a buyer agree upon if YOU are not even involved in the transaction. It's like you'll feel you're entitled to 100% disclosure on head-fi purchases just because you post here. The laziness, if at all a case in the matter, is the fault of the buyer. It's not the seller's responsibility to do the legwork for the buyer. If you want an item bad enough it shouldn't feel like "work" to do the research on said item to determine the price you are willing to pay.

With that said, I am in complete agreement over the whole replacing the price with SOLD debate in threads where an original price was listed; however, I do not feel that those listing their items as IC's should be required to come back, like Jason so graciously did, and alert everyone to what their item sold for. If the seller wants to do that out of his own free will that is one thing but they should not be mandated to do so. If you want to know what the item sold for then get your fingers moving and fire off a PM to the seller...

Quote:

Originally Posted by matt8268
2. My main frustration with IC is the idea that the seller isn't sure whether he wants to sell or not. You see buyers go to all this trouble to email offers and get interested, and then the seller says, "I've decided I can't part with it." or "I found a way to afford keeping my item AND buy the new thing I want". I just think your widget should either be for sale or not for sale. Of course occasionally someone will change his mind, but the frequency of ICs is just ridiculous.


...and if that's too much trouble for you then you obviously don't want the item bad enough. Now if they change their mind to sell their item that is their right as well. Your frustration doesn't come with whether the seller wants to sell or not, it comes from not being able to control what the seller does.

Having said this, there is a fine line between changing one's mind and going back on the deal and I am completely opposed to the latter. If you make a deal with someone to sell them an item at a said price then you should follow through with that. It is a matter of ethics, integrity, and honor to do so. That's why, when I run an IC, I don't commit to anyone at any offer until I feel I have received all of them. Once I have committed the deal is done. If someone PM's me and offers me $100+ more than the person I committed to then I will politely decline their offer, thank them, and tell them good luck with their search. That is just me though. You can't expect everyone to subscribe to this philosophy and then get upset when they don't. If someone does that then you make the choice not to do business with them in the future and you leave negative feedback; but, you don't get upset simply because you have no control over the situation. Who does that benefit? Certainly not yourself.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gorthon
Then why not put up an FS for what you think it was worth or what you would want for it? If it sells, Great. If not, then you do whatever. If someone wants it, but does not want to pay your price, they have the option to PM you with an offer.

IC's are an easy way for someone not to have to do there market value research.


Hogwash. IC's are an easy way for the seller to part with their item at the current market value. The IC is the research. If you're interested then make an offer, if you're not then it's no one's business what the item is selling for aside from the buyer and seller.

Here comes the entitlement again. One is not privy to total awareness just because they exist and peruse head-fi. This is, IMO, what this whole issue comes down to. People being concerned with what other people are concerned with and not being able to control it and/or be a part of it themselves.
 
Mar 10, 2006 at 6:54 PM Post #60 of 77
Quote:

Originally Posted by F1GTR
Here comes the entitlement again. One is not privy to total awareness just because they exist and peruse head-fi. This is, IMO, what this whole issue comes down to. People being concerned with what other people are concerned with and not being able to control it and/or be a part of it themselves.


Control it? No, obviously not. Not be a part of it themselves? Now thats hogwash.
 
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