iFi Audio presents iDSD Valkyrie

[gto88]

For the battery issue on all portable gears, I think replaceable battery tray is the ultimate solution.

 

[Thorsten Loesch]

So what you are saying is that once the battery hits 90% charge, power from the battery is no longer pulled/used, but power is exclusively pulled/used from the AC adapter/charging cable?

No. I am saying that when a "charger" (actually an external DC power supply) is connected, the device is powered from the external DC supply.

The battery is not connected to the device directly and doesn't provide power. If the state of charge of the battery is below the recharge threshold, the battery will be charged to the maximum state of charge designed/programmed into the product and once charge is complete the battery will literally be disconnected and neither provide power nor will it be charged.

When I designed the iDSD micro in 2014 all dedicated lithium polymer battery charging IC's (integrated circuits aka chips) implemented this and a further range of more specific charging specifications based on the JEITA standard issued in 2007 and considered the "gold standard".

The charging in your laptop and smartphone etc. also works this way.

If the battery is not bypassed then it is being used, to my knowledge.

I think we have an issue here in what you understand as "bypassed" and "battery is being used" actually mean.

In my definition the battery is "bypassed" if it is inactive when the device is on external power and the battery is charged sufficiently, in this case the battery is not used.

As stated, all battery charging solutions for lithium polymer batteries, that I know, work in the way I described. The battery is being charged from the external power if there is a need to charge, the battery provided no power, if the external power supply is sufficient to supply the device.

So if, for arguments sake, you take a lipo battery powered device and connect it to mains power exclusively and never disconnect external power, the battery will be actually maintained between 94% and 100% against self discharge, but be otherwise unused.

Now 100% state of charge is a stress factor for Lipo batteries and might in this case cut shelf life in half. A state of charge at 70% will not cause a degradation of the battery life compared to unused "Shelf life". With ~ 5-6 Years shelf life, a battery kept at ~ 100% stated of charge will reach 70% capacity after ~ 3 years.

Let's take an alternative use, where you charge the device overnight and then use the device on battery until the battery is empty.

A standard LiPo battery will have a degradation in life span for each charge/discharge cycles. A capacity degradation to 70% capacity will happen after 300-500 cycles, so with daily use the battery will be considered "end of life" within around a year.

Note, the battery will still work fine, just capacity will be lower.

Having a physical switch labelled "battery bypass" that physically disconnects the battery will not really change that much here.

The built in automatic systems in post appx. 2010 battery charging solutions do in effect the same thing transparently.

The only thing such a switch does is to make sure that if external power is cut off, the device shuts down instead of transparently switching over to battery.

As far as I know, everything that is used is subject to degradation, unless this battery is somehow magical and does not degrade.

As I stated, if you place a lithium polymer battery charged to 50...70% into a climate controlled warehouse and make sure to recharge if the self discharge drops the state of charge below 30%, but otherwise you do not use the battery at all, the battery capacity will degrade.

Normally a decline of battery capacity to 70% is taken as "End of life". For many lithium polymer batteries a shelf life of 5 Years will get to this point.

Ultimately, myself and possibly others want to know that this would be a safe long term investment,

Audio equipment is not a safe long term investment, neither are stocks or other financial instruments.

Thor

 

[Currawong]

From my own experimentation, the Valkyrie is fairly easy to disassemble, and since the batteries aren't soldered in, replacement should be fairly easy.

 

[Assationater]

My brand new micro idsd lasted almost 2 days straight on eco mode out of the box, so im sure the battery will atleast last a good time to come.

 

[Buenodrake]

From my own experimentation, the Valkyrie is fairly easy to disassemble, and since the batteries aren't soldered in, replacement should be fairly easy.

Thats ideal, being able to purchase and replace a battery on your own. More than likely going to skip this and maybe grab another DAP like the DX340 (has replaceable batteries) that can run off of DC Power via the highest gain function (bypass).

 

[BS5711]

From my own experimentation, the Valkyrie is fairly easy to disassemble, and since the batteries aren't soldered in, replacement should be fairly easy.

Would you be so kind as to post a few pictures or a brief video ?

It seems apparent that long term battery health and eventual replacement are an important consideration for many folks, myself included.

 

[Currawong]

Would you be so kind as to post a few pictures or a brief video ?

It seems apparent that long term battery health and eventual replacement are an important consideration for many folks, myself included.

I’ll try and do that for the review. Talking about long term usage and repairability is a good idea.

 

[nioh]

Just reading this makes me wonder where so much disinformation comes from.

Modern LIPO charger IC's by default "bypass" the battery automatically, when external power is provided. They will charge the battery full and leave it there.

Fitting a physical switch that disconnects the battery only risks it going into deep discharge by self discharge and reducing battery life.

What might be beneficial is a "battery saver" mode that maintains the batter at 70% charge. This in effect is the same as shelf life (lithium based batteries are organic, so over time deteriote even if unused).

Now in no ways am I endorsing the Valk, but the "battery bypass" malarkey is just complete Bakwaas.



Thor

Constant charging and discharging a LiPo battery, especially to full will degrade it quickly.
There are other problems leaving a battery powered device always plugged-in which I will not go into.

A desktop DAC labelled as portable just because it has batteries is a very bad idea !

 

[iFi audio]

From my own experimentation, the Valkyrie is fairly easy to disassemble, and since the batteries aren't soldered in, replacement should be fairly easy.

Don't forget, folks, AXPONA is just a couple of days away. Not only will we have the Valkyrie there to demo, but I will also do my best to post photos of the one we have with the top shell removed.

Although it's not a disassembly video, it should provide some more context.

See you there...

Cheers!!

 

[Thorsten Loesch]

Constant charging and discharging a LiPo battery, especially to full will degrade it quickly.

If you use a DAC with a battery stationary and always on external the battery will be charged full once, after it needs to srlf-discharge to ~94% before it is charged again. Normally this level of discharge takes several month

There are other problems leaving a battery powered device always plugged-in which I will not go into.

Hmmm, as someone who designs such products I am curious.

I have a iDSD micro Black Label here, which by now is probably 7 Years old and has pretty much never been used portable. It is always plugged in.

It still works fine as is. I have not tested the battery capacity, I guess I should...

A desktop DAC labelled as portable just because it has batteries is a very bad idea !

Probably, but not because it has batteries.

Thor

 

[Assationater]

If you use a DAC with a battery stationary and always on external the battery will be charged full once, after it needs to srlf-discharge to ~94% before it is charged again. Normally this level of discharge takes several month

Oh? My finale heats up like every 15 minutes seemingly on random, i assumed this was just because its charging, but maybe thats not the case?

 

[nioh]

If you use a DAC with a battery stationary and always on external the battery will be charged full once, after it needs to srlf-discharge to ~94% before it is charged again. Normally this level of discharge takes several month



Hmmm, as someone who designs such products I am curious.

I have a iDSD micro Black Label here, which by now is probably 7 Years old and has pretty much never been used portable. It is always plugged in.

It still works fine as is. I have not tested the battery capacity, I guess I should...



Probably, but not because it has batteries.

Thor

Leaving a LiPo battery at full charge for longer periods is a bad idea. It will degrade faster. Worst case (rare but possible) it could swell and even be a fire hazard. Happened to one of my DACs from a “well known brand” here. Lucky for you, your micro Black Label did not have any such problems.

Oh? My finale heats up like every 15 minutes seemingly on random, i assumed this was just because its charging, but maybe thats not the case?

Overheating is one of the many side-effects of leaving a LiPo battery at full charge for longer periods.

 

[Thorsten Loesch]

Leaving a LiPo battery at full charge for longer periods is a bad idea. It will degrade faster.

Yes, i covered the impact earlier.

It roughly cut's shelf life in half to ~ 3 years (EOL is defined at capacity degradation to 70% of nominal or alternatively after 6 Year the battery capacity will be ~ 50% on nominal. The battery still works, or course, just less capacity.

Worst case (rare but possible) it could swell and even be a fire hazard.

NOT if the charging system is designed correctly and implements the JEITA battery charging recommendations from 2007.

Happened to one of my DACs from a “well known brand” here.

It also happened to the LiPo batteries on the dreamliner. In the dreamliner the battery and charger design was not correct for LIPO.

Lucky for you, your micro Black Label did not have any such problems.

Well, I designed it to operate correctly. It also has an automatic desktop mode that keeps the battery at 3.9V in desktop mode.

I am aware of some battery problems in the iDSD micro series. USUALLY we were able to trace them to mechanical shock (dropped) or overheating from external sources (left in the car under full sun).

Overheating is one of the many side-effects of leaving a LiPo battery at full charge for longer periods.

No, that simply untrue. Once the standard lipo battery is charged to 4.2V (+/-0.05V) and is left there, there is no heating of the battery. What is however lethal if charging to the full 4.2V and keep the charging voltage/current applied. This can be done, but the voltage needs to be derated, 4.1V tends to be safe, 4V is safe and 3.9V "float charging" with < 30 degree temperature regulation equals "shelf life".

For lipo batteries the stresses that reduce life most are in order:

1) Charging at > 60 degrees (C) battery temperature (risk of fire and severe capacity reduction)
2) Operation below 0 Degrees (C) battery temperature (massive capacity reduction per event)
3) Deep Discharge (< 2.7V Cell Voltage) (several percent capacity reduction per event)
4) Charge cycles (~ 0.1% capacity reduction per cycle)
5) Dwell time at high voltage (100% charge maintained, roughly halves shelf life)

Oh? My finale heats up like every 15 minutes seemingly on random, i assumed this was just because its charging, but maybe thats not the case?

It should not be charging.

I cannot comment on the Finale and the changes to it. You can see if it is charging by monitoring current with one of these USB Monitor gizmo's:

My 100W USB-C Charger/Brick also allows to monitor the current, as does my orange USB Cable.

But the USB Monitor Gizmo has a Phone App and Bluetooth and can be used with the App to draw out current as graph.

Something you will need to check is if the Finale has the same way of switching between Battery and Mains power mode as the black label and normal iDSD micro.

Because when we designed this in 2014 getting this thing to work with the then standard USB 2.0 ports with 0.5A maximum current took a little legerdemain also to make it reasonably transparent.

On the OG connect external power (or USB) first, then turn on selects external power.

Switch on before connecting USB/Power and you are in Battery operation mode. In this mode external power, even if present is ignored.

As the iDSD micro was designed for Laptops and Computers as source (phones were still not up to too much and much smaller than today's) it also had a "sneaky" recharge mode when running on battery. After 15 minutes without audio, it would switch to charging.

So if all that logic, that is not necessary in the Finale as it has a separate power connector, was left in the firmware code, the behavior you describe may result from turning on the Finale on in "Battery Mode" and leaving it without a signal for 15 Minutes, at which point it will charge, IF the battery is not full, which will of course be the case if you are running on the battery.

So you will be cycling the battery. So you should make sure to plug in power and leave it plugged in and always turn off the Unit with the switch in the volume control. This also should trigger "desktop mode" automatically, where the battery is charged to 3.9V instead of 4.2V.

Thor

 

[Assationater]

So you should make sure to plug in power and leave it plugged in and always turn off the Unit with the switch in the volume control. This also should trigger "desktop mode" automatically, where the battery is charged to 3.9V instead of 4.2V.

Hm alright I guess I’ll just switch off the unit when not in use then.
Just turned it off while its plugged in and it claims its charging but not heating up, no clue whats up with this thing lol

 

[nioh]

No, that simply untrue. Once the standard lipo battery is charged to 4.2V (+/-0.05V) and is left there, there is no heating of the battery. What is however lethal if charging to the full 4.2V and keep the charging voltage/current applied. This can be done, but the voltage needs to be derated, 4.1V tends to be safe, 4V is safe and 3.9V "float charging" with < 30 degree temperature regulation equals "shelf life".

Again, as you said above if the battery has issues and develops increased internal resistance over time due to leaving it on mains all the time, this will lead to overheating, swelling, fire etc. So yes it is possible and is true. May be not always, but it is a possibility.