iFi audio iDSD Diablo - A portable reference done our way!

Aug 1, 2023 at 6:13 AM Post #2,821 of 3,081
GO Pod, for which I have paid £400, works. 👍👏

Woah Nelly!

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Four ton's! Nearly a Monkey! For real!? That is a lot of pie and mash!

I have not kept up with iFi's releases. It seems they have gone from overcharging a lot to going full on proverbial, by charging like the light brigade.

At this price level relative to manufacturing cost I'd expect first class customer service. I mean if you charge the customer like old Charlie the Third, you need to treat him like a King. Instead it seems the service you received is about in line with how British Telecom serves their customers on the lowest tier price plan.

On top, at this price the product should be top notch and at least by (my hardware) design it has the possibility.

I must offer up my appy polly logie for my for former company. What you have experienced is not cricket! I guess it's too late for you to return the product?

Thor
 
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Aug 1, 2023 at 6:23 AM Post #2,822 of 3,081
Woah Nelly!



Four ton's! Nearly a Monkey! For real!? That is a lot of pie and mash!

I have not kept up with iFi's releases. It seems they have gone from overcharging a lot to going full on proverbial, by charging like the light brigade.

At this price level relative to manufacturing cost I'd expect first class customer service. I mean if you charge the customer like old Charlie the Third, you need to treat him like a King. Instead it seems the service you received is about in line with how British Telecom serves their customers on the lowest tier price plan.

On top, at this price the product should be top notch and at least by (my hardware) design it has the possibility.

I must offer up my appy polly logie for my for former company. What you have experienced is not cricket! I guess it's too late for you to return the product?

Thor
I understand what you mean and I fully agree! For me, though, the GO Pod is a must product. Due to my lifestyle, I cannot sit down and listen to my music, I am always up doing something, indoors or outdoors. The most convenient way for listening to music, for me, is Bluetooth. No cables at all. I already own 2 pairs of the FiiO UTWS5 and I can reassure you that the GO Pod sounds much better on LDAC 990/909 kbps and it is fully reliable, with a rock-solid and stable Bluetooth connection. I do not have a single connection drop throughout my entire property, always using LDAC 990/909kbps, stereo. I just wish they will correct a few things, that's all. I also wish they will provide an App. And, I wish and pray that they will not break things during this process.
 
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Aug 1, 2023 at 6:42 AM Post #2,823 of 3,081
For me, though, the GO Pod is a must product. Due to my lifestyle, I cannot sit down and listen to my music, I am always up doing something, indoors or outdoors. The most convenient way for listening to music, for me, is Bluetooth. No cables at all.

I like that as well for being out and about.

After testing a lot of options a few years back I stayed wired and got a Shanling M1 as BT adapter and/or DAP. With a clip on my shirt or T-Shirt the cable is manageable and the M1 fits shirt pockets.

If I'm going to be taking a long journey I take the xDSD which sits in a trouser pocket.

I already own 2 pairs of the FiiO UTWS5 and I can reassure you that the GO Pod sounds much better on LDAC 990/909 kbps and it is fully reliable, with a rock-solid and stable Bluetooth connection. I do not have a single connection drop throughout my entire property, always using LDAC 990/909kbps, stereo.

Good to hear. The hardware is really solid.

I just wish they will correct a few things, that's all. I also wish they will provide an App. And, I wish and pray that they will not break things during this process.

You know that you access the EQ build into the BT Chipset from the GAIA App, unless it has been disabled?

There are also some excellent EQ App's for Android. Also options for crossfeed. In some cases they are build into the player.

I use USB Audio Player Pro which includes EQ and Crossfeed. My IEM's (unreleased prototypes) do not need EQ, but do benefit from some crossfeed.

https://play.google.com/store/apps/details?id=com.extreamsd.usbaudioplayerpro&hl=en_US

I generally do not use streaming services, incidentally, though some (Tidal, Qbouz) are supported for integration with UAPP.

Thor
 
Aug 1, 2023 at 8:45 AM Post #2,824 of 3,081
Now that is just my personal view, but on sound quality, Black Label was to my ears preferred, but that is not an absolute judgement, but a relative one. I like a "tube" kind of sound, or perhaps a sound that is the sonic equivalent of an old Leitz Leica lense, with amazing colours but perhaps not the highest resolution and presence of smallest details.

Power, the only headphone I know where the Black Label struggles a bit are AKG K1000. Anything else it did more than well enough.

The red label / diablo had more power not because this power is needed, but it makes for easy marketing to say more Watt are more better.

Thor
I own a Diablo, but this post makes me wants to hunt a black label

Is this what you meant with black label? https://ifi-audio.com/products/micro-idsd-bl/
 
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Aug 1, 2023 at 9:26 AM Post #2,825 of 3,081
Aug 1, 2023 at 3:44 PM Post #2,827 of 3,081

I would recommend used, but make sure all switches (there are many, unfortunately / fortunately) work and the unit has not been dropped badly (look at case, hard drops leave traces), which can affect the battery negatively.

Thor
 
Aug 1, 2023 at 5:07 PM Post #2,828 of 3,081
Correct, when the DAC is outputting a signal, it is a line out. If the DAC is muted (electronically, internal, not on source volume control) it effectively disconnects the DAC from the output (the mute switch is opened) and the line outputs become open circuit.

This in effect makes the line out an input to the headphone amplifier.

As said, it is one of those things that "works in practice" but is not a formal intended feature.


I had no hand in the signature. It is mostly a BL as far as I can tell with just the connectors changed. But I do not know for sure the precise details of the changes.

Looking at the PCB photos they appear minimal to the actual electronics, so it seems the 3.5mm jack was simply deleted. There were problems getting good quality jacks and there were a lot of machines in the field where the switches in the 3.5mm jacks lost contact.

We later switched to another jack for later products that does not have these problems, but marketing never liked the line in feature. One reviewer apparently compared the Amp alone against a very esoteric and expensive (~ 6 times the price of the BL for a HP amp only) stand alone HP Amp and concluded that "the ifi BL is let down by an average Headphone Amp", so I think when the chance came to ditch a feature that caused that they must been jumping for joy.



I do not think that there was any change to the "Signature" that makes it sonically better than the BL. Just keep your BL.



The story starts with the standard (silver) iDSD micro. It was designed for 299-399 USD price point and to be what I'd (trans)portable, not "pocketable". It was designed with good quality, but not audiophile grade components. It's design and features were ostensibly "crowd" sources, though this was moderated and managed, so it was more a way of getting feedback on features and if they should be put into the final product. It sold well and helped to establish ifi's reputation for affordable products that "punched above their weight".

Eventually the original iDSD micro became "stale" in the market, but there was no real major redesign that made sense. So in effect the "Black Label" became what would have been otherwise a "signature" or "tuned" edition, with improved active and passive parts. It affected a lot of parts all across the circuit. It meant existing PCB designs and production jigs and process could be retained, making it an quick and easy way to improve the existing product.

The only real difference between a silver or black edition are the parts, not the actual circuit which is identical. Call it a "factory tuned" edition. The sonic difference is that the "Black Label" is a little cleaner, more transparent, more spacious, nothing night and day, but notable, for a nominal price increase.

The result was renewed and arguably improved sales, in a market that started to catch up with the product.

AFAIK based on looking at the PCB photos there are no obvious circuit and parts differences between BL and SIG, I do not expect sonic differences, so it is probably best seen as a purely cosmetic facelift with small changes to features and updated connectors.

The "Diablo" is a more interesting story. It originated when someone at the time sales manager for China asserted it was impossible to sell the iDSD micro in China, because it "sounded old fashioned and not high resolution" and because it "had features that make the sound bad (e.g. crossfeed, bass boost, selectable digital filter).

That led to the idea to make an "alternate take" on the BL that used a modified headphone amp with a more "bright" tuning, did away with all the in my view useful sonic features (which seems to be viewed by some potential customers not as ways to fix problems with their headphones - which is what they are - but as band aids to make a poor product sound better). As chinese like "Red" it was called the "red label" internally and the original prototype was spray painted "China Flag Red" with the intention to get "Ferrari red" for production. My suggestion to add one big and four small yellow stars was not acted upon :ksc75smile:.

Anyway, It was to be a stripped down version primarily for the Chinese/Asian market and secondarily an alternative for western consumers that would look for a "featureless" product (kinda like an AR-15 for Kalifornifikation).

Prototypes were hacked up as conversion from actual BL PCB's and it was supposed to have pre-production units at Munich (21017 IIRC) before the project was killed, presumably because importers and dealers were unenthusiastic to carry two mostly identical "new" products that directedly competed against each other and might simply confuse customers and might cause them to buy something different. I don't really know for sure. I felt that this "red label" went directly against the basic principles behind ifi products, so I was not that unhappy to see it's demise.

Despite me pushing for replacement designs for the BL based on the x-series design language and principles this was not green lighted, supposedly the BL sales were strong.

My intention was to scale many of the design approaches into the BL replacement, which would have used the volume control and other related electronically controlled systems from the xDSD or xCAN with the headphone amp designed for the aborted "red label", added bluetooth and DSD/MQA decoding from SPDIF (taken from the Pro iDSD). It would have been balanced.

A merger of xDSD & xCAN was also discussed but at the time not acted upon. This seems to have been revived as the "gryphon" in a way that suggest a literal copy/paste combination of the two products into one PCB, instead of actually upgrading the xDSD Headphone Amp the way I had originally intended.

The xDSD was actually designed as replacement for the iDSD nano, but ended up being priced way above that competing with the iDSD micro which is clearly the all round better product and as a result likely sold well than it deserved and would have done at the original design price point of 250 USD.
It is things like that caused rifts. Products were overpriced and thus were poorly competitive in the market, because they were competing with products they were not designed to compete against and sold poorly and the blame was not put at the pricing or marketing.

With a big hole left at the bottom of the range due to the "nano's departing and the xDSD/xCAN being too expensive you got the "HIP DAC" and the first generation Zen's and other products were prioritised. These were actually again products in classic "ifi" tradition, the Zen DAC & HIP DAC for example are 95% the iDAC 2 micro with very few changes to make them balanced. The Zen CAN was a new ground up design.

Then there were various "small size products" currently coming, BT & USB dongles etc. You can tell if a new gen product in that range originated with me by looking at the DAC Chip, if it is BB or CS, it was stuff I worked on, if it is ESS (except the 90123 in xCAN, Zen Blue and Aurora), I had no hand in it.

Meanwhile the Black Label iDSD micro was soundly overtaken in the market and again became stale with slowing sales.

When it became clear that I would irrevocably leave iFi after serving out my notice period over a wide range of differences (let's call them creative, business and financially related) there was a sudden push to get the "red label" into preproduction and to make it balanced, without actually making it the kind of product it should have been. It ended up a bit of a rush job and missed out on many opportunities it would have had as a full redesign.

I suspect someone else worked behind my back on the "signature", not that there was a lot to do. As said, first I knew about it was when it was released.

Release was already over a year after I had left, seems things took time. While I am sure they are still viable products delivering good sound, I do not feel they should have been released in 2020, when it was possible to come up with much better products. Again, this approach to business was apart of the reason for me to leave.

Anyway, I think both "red label" and "signature" releases were "quick fixes" for flagging sales of the "Black Label" without a full redesign that would have forced iFi/AMR to come to a sensible agreement with me that would have kept me on board at least enough to be able to work on serious next generation products. Years later these products that are now conceptually and in terms of technology a decade old are still being sold as "portable flagships".
The "sig" and "diablo" are both products I do not have units in my posession.

I have xDSD/xCAN, Black Label, Pro's, Zen's, Retro and Aurora I retained and use more or less frequently myself and that I am proud to show off. I do not feel that I am missing out on anything not having the "sig" or "diablo". I look at them and I do not feel "I want one, now. Take my money already!".

To me that means with these products (some others too) we at ifi violated the first principle we had when we started the company, namely to only ever make products that we ourselves would be happy to buy, at the price they were sold and with our own money.

Make of it what you will.

I left, then Covid happened and a lot of other stuff, so I have been far away from anything ifi/AMR for quite a few years. I have no real idea what goes on these days.

I think for a while iFi/AMR tried to replace me with John Curl, but his forte is not the kind products ifi needs and he refused to put his name on designs not his. Last time I talked with John he had been unceremoniously dropped by ifi without notice.

Of course, that's just my view. And my side of the story.

I notice that a lot of folks get incorrect, incomplete or meaningless answers from "iFi" to serious questions, which is a shame, as ifi used to have excellent and responsive support and good responses to questions. So if I notice and have the time and inclination to respond, I put in my 2 Thai Baht...

Thor
@Thorsten Loesch thank you so much for you invaluable input and feedback :) :) :) I do appreciate a lot.

Actually I've got Sig instead of BL but with a very nice discount. I've done it since I still have iDac2 + iCan SE + iTube2 rig and I love it just the way I am still enjoying Pro iCan. The Sig and Zen Stream were two very disappointing products and a sign that something very wrong is happening with the company. I've decided to skip the Diablo and further products like Phantom since they all looked to me like a quick marketing gig and not a real development.
 
Aug 1, 2023 at 5:16 PM Post #2,829 of 3,081
| will not comment on the latter "suggestions" and only speak from my personal experience.

Company culture is the reason why I left - just read their Indeed page for an idea: https://uk.indeed.com/cmp/Ifi-Audio-2/reviews

I can sadly confirm a lot (and worse) of these are true. Left feeling undervalued, undermined, and underpaid.

Most of the good people during my time have now left. I

It's more of a running joke for my niche industry community and me now, but during the time it honestly felt horrible that my first full-time job post-grad ended up that way. The amount of things I went through managing threads for them (that resulted in personal attacks and death threats from crazy customers, for example) is laughable - mostly in terms in the support I received back from the company post event.

The new teams I work for are entirely the opposite. I'm much happier doing my own thing now than being controlled by one entity. It also resulted in a more positive impact on the community at large.

@Thorsten Loesch is a breath of fresh air with the honesty here - thanks for coming in and sharing all this valuable info before iFi asks all of this to be deleted.

(I will be pleasantly surprised if they don't).
@Sebastien Chiu I find this post a bit amusing and sad at the same time as I do remember our discussion about issues regarding ifi product development vs marketing here on head-fi and your very different attitude back then. As a rule of a thumb I'd refrain from comments about your previous employers especially in such context but obviously it is your choice. Just my 2 cents considering that your future employers may also read this forum eventually. Do not take this post as attack towards you, rather take it as lesson from older fellow please as no harm is intended here. Glad to hear that your new job is way better than the previous one.

Coming back to Diablo I wonder how many customer will sell it after reading all of this.
 
Aug 1, 2023 at 5:34 PM Post #2,830 of 3,081
@Sebastien Chiu I find this post a bit amusing and sad at the same time as I do remember our discussion about issues regarding ifi product development vs marketing here on head-fi and your very different attitude back then. As a rule of a thumb I'd refrain from comments about your previous employers especially in such context but obviously it is your choice. Just my 2 cents considering that your future employers may also read this forum eventually. Do not take this post as attack towards you, rather take it as lesson from older fellow please as no harm is intended here. Glad to hear that your new job is way better than the previous one.

Coming back to Diablo I wonder how many customer will sell it after reading all of this.

No personal attack taken.

Thank you for your two cents from your perspective as an older fellow, I credit this difference in opinion to generational reasons as I'm in my mid 20s and grew up in this industry. I have seen it from it's infancy, how it exploded over the pandemic, to now as it enters it's next phase.

It is far too common in our world that employees have bitten their tongues, thus resulting in more new hires going unaware into abusive situations.

Feeling changes over time - our interactions were when I was still quite excited to have joined the company and it was when I believed I could bring positive change to their products.

After seeing a disregard for my team's work and my mental health, my opinions slowly became what they were above.

I have nothing signed with iFi audio that limits my voice and I intend to use my influence in this community accordingly. This includes statements like these, though the other 99% of my work is for the community first.

My new employers know I wear my heart on my sleeve, for better or worse.

I will always respect NDAs and embargoes but they and any future client will know what they are getting when they choose to work with me.

On a positive note, I will always thank iFi for the training on forums and industry understanding working there gave me; it is still an invaluable experience for me.

Your thoughts are very appreciated.
 
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Aug 1, 2023 at 7:30 PM Post #2,831 of 3,081
While I can appreciate all the sentiments posted here, I must ask that we keep to Diablo discussion.

Although illuminating perhaps folks would be better served buy starting another thread for the current comments, and let's leave this thread for discussion of the Diablo and it's usage.

Just saying...


Cheers!!
 
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Aug 1, 2023 at 7:54 PM Post #2,832 of 3,081
While I can appreciate all the sentiments posted here, I must ask that we keep to Diablo discussion.

Although illuminating perhaps folks would be better served buy starting another thread for the current comments, and let's leave this thread for discussion of the Diablo and it's usage.

Just saying...


Cheers!!

I concur, I am not particularly interested in the behind the scenes grizzles about an ex place of work.

If I don't like what ifi are selling I won't buy it, I don't come here for (ex) office politics regardless of how well intended the comments are.
 
Aug 1, 2023 at 7:54 PM Post #2,833 of 3,081
While I can appreciate all the sentiments posted here, I must ask that we keep to Diablo discussion.

Although illuminating perhaps folks would be better served buy starting another thread for the current comments, and let's leave this thread for discussion of the Diablo and it's usage.

Just saying...


Cheers!!
A product discussion cannot be isolated from the product development nor from the company that makes it.
 
Aug 1, 2023 at 8:16 PM Post #2,834 of 3,081
@Sebastien Chiu I find this post a bit amusing and sad at the same time as I do remember our discussion about issues regarding ifi product development vs marketing here on head-fi and your very different attitude back then. As a rule of a thumb I'd refrain from comments about your previous employers especially in such context but obviously it is your choice. Just my 2 cents considering that your future employers may also read this forum eventually. Do not take this post as attack towards you, rather take it as lesson from older fellow please as no harm is intended here. Glad to hear that your new job is way better than the previous one.

Coming back to Diablo I wonder how many customer will sell it after reading all of this.
I tried many DAP, have not used Diablo for a while because I prefer to use DAP because it is more convenient. Last night I updated the firmware and while testing it, I found that it can still compete with most current high end DAP. Now trying it as an amplifier only using the 4.4" bypass. Good but not great, there are noises like tube amplifier. Those noise were not there if it is on DAC amp mode.

iFi Black Label was not well accepted by my local community, it is easier to find a second hand BL than a second hand Diablo.
 
Aug 1, 2023 at 8:30 PM Post #2,835 of 3,081
I tried many DAP, have not used Diablo for a while because I prefer to use DAP because it is more convenient. Last night I updated the firmware and while testing it, I found that it can still compete with most current high end DAP. Now trying it as an amplifier only using the 4.4" bypass. Good but not great, there are noises like tube amplifier. Those noise were not there if it is on DAC amp mode.

iFi Black Label was not well accepted by my local community, it is easier to find a second hand BL than a second hand Diablo.

If the Diablo is making odd noises using the line in mode there might be a problem with the cable, are you using one with all 5 terminals connected to the Pentaconn plug, not many cables are connected that way, the ifi one is.

I have never heard any sort of noises that I consider to be a problem when using the proper cable, a very minor little sound when manually changing tracks but certainly nothing that I would consider would prompt your comments.

With a four wire interconnect (most are only four wire) so the Diablo isn't earthed, the bass disappears and there is humming if you wind the volume up with no music playing, I expect that might be the "tube amplifier" sounds you refer to.
 

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