[pounce]

Thanks. Why would the battery be running low if I am running from USB? Perhaps I assumed wrong in the way the device operates. I had assumed that when running from USB that the battery is not being used and that power is provided by the USB connection. I've been using the device with USB 100% since I got it about a week ago.

Should I keep it in charge mode all the time if I am connected to USB?

 

[jamato8]

If the charge mode is off, then the battery is not charged. I just leave it on while hooked to the USB but if you don't leave it on then you will have to recharge the battery each time it gets low. That is the reason for the on and off for the selector switch.

 

[wuwhere]

Quote:

Originally Posted by pounce /img/forum/go_quote.gif Thanks. Why would the battery be running low if I am running from USB? Perhaps I assumed wrong in the way the device operates. I had assumed that when running from USB that the battery is not being used and that power is provided by the USB connection. I've been using the device with USB 100% since I got it about a week ago. Should I keep it in charge mode all the time if I am connected to USB?

The D10 is always running from the battery power, never from the USB. The USB is always just for charging the battery when the toggle switch is set to ON CHARGE.

 

[pounce]

Quote:

Originally Posted by wuwhere /img/forum/go_quote.gif The D10 is always running from the battery power, never from the USB. The USB is always just for charging the battery when the toggle switch is set to ON CHARGE.

Thanks for this info. This wasn't clear to me.

What's the purpose of the switch then? I guess I'm not seeing the value of being able to leave it on "charge" all the time without impacting the battery, but also have the ability to switch from "Charge".

Has this been covered somewhere before? I searched and didn't uncover anything.

 

[webbie64]

Quote:

Originally Posted by pounce /img/forum/go_quote.gif What's the purpose of the switch then? I guess I'm not seeing the value of being able to leave it on "charge" all the time without impacting the battery, but also have the ability to switch from "Charge". Has this been covered somewhere before? I searched and didn't uncover anything.

It has been covered before from two angles The first is to do with better sound quality from direct battery power...

Quote:

Originally Posted by dnm /img/forum/go_quote.gif Well, it would sound logical to me to disconnect the battery when the power is on and run on external power, charging the battery if necessary.

Quote:

Originally Posted by qusp /img/forum/go_quote.gif Well that would require a totally separate circuit to filter the power from USB which is actually quite dirty in general, instead the batteries are used as a sort of capacitor bank.

And the other angle is to do with the fact it is a Lithium-Ion battery...

Quote:

Originally Posted by shredder /img/forum/go_quote.gif If I plug the D10 into my USB from the computer and let er rip..... should I switch the charge switch to on or off? Can I do both at the same time? Better to kill a battery then recharge?

Quote:

Originally Posted by jamato8 /img/forum/go_quote.gif I leave mine on charge all the time. The battery has a certain amount of cycles. A cycle is a total discharge and recharge. If you discharge 1/4 and recharge you have 1/4 of a cycle. I prefer to cycle my battery much less as it will last longer and I find no reason to discharge my battery all the time. To burn in I leave the switch on.

This is related to the advantages/disadvantages of Lithium-Ion batteries. On the one hand they do not suffer from the memory effect of nickel metal hydride and nicket cadmium batteries, meaning they don't benefit from being fully discharged before recharging and, in fact, most advocate you should rarely discharge them fully. The other side of this, though, is the poor cycle life. There are a number of factors here including the temperature the battery is stored at and the amount of charge in the battery.

As Wikipedia (Lithium-ion battery - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia) indicates...

"At a 100% charge level, a typical Li-ion laptop battery that is full most of the time at 25 °C or 77 °F will irreversibly lose approximately 20% capacity per year. However, a battery in a poorly ventilated laptop may be subject to prolonged exposure to higher temperatures, which will shorten its life. Different storage temperatures produce different loss results: 6% loss at 0 °C (32 °F), 20% at 25 °C (77 °F), and 35% at 40 °C (104 °F). When stored at 40%–60% charge level, the capacity loss is reduced to 2%, 4%, 15% at 0, 25 and 40 degrees Celsius respectively"

Another advantage of Lithium-Ion batteries is that they only have a self-discharge rate of approximately 5-10% per month, compared to over 30% per month in common nickel metal hydride batteries.

So what does that all mean???

Well, my take is that I:

1. avoid letting my Li-Ion batteries discharge fully because there is a risk that they won't recharge if they're depleted below their minimum voltage; and
2. my loss of total battery capacity will be minimised by me keeping my D10 in at least a partially charged state and in lower temperatures (but, no, unlike film storage I don't keep my D10 in the fridge LOL).

I hope that helps clarify the design reasoning for you.

Happy listening to your D10!

 

[sbulack]

Great post, webbie!
It pulls together a lot of useful information in one convenient access spot.
Thanks!

 

[pounce]

Well, I get what you are saying, but perhaps it just doesn't make sense to me that someone would design the charge/power of this device to offload the logic of when and for how long the unit is in charge mode to the human owner. It would seem far more logical to just build a good charging circuit like an online UPS and remove the switch completely. If the unit is always pulling from the battery then it does sound like its doing a double conversion.

I'll ask ibasso directly. There has to be a solid explanation for using the switch or they would not have put it there. I understand what it actually does, but its not really clear on why its needed or how they want the humans to use it.

 

[tekdemon]

Quote:

Originally Posted by pounce /img/forum/go_quote.gif Well, I get what you are saying, but perhaps it just doesn't make sense to me that someone would design the charge/power of this device to offload the logic of when and for how long the unit is in charge mode to the human owner. It would seem far more logical to just build a good charging circuit like an online UPS and remove the switch completely. If the unit is always pulling from the battery then it does sound like its doing a double conversion. I'll ask ibasso directly. There has to be a solid explanation for using the switch or they would not have put it there. I understand what it actually does, but its not really clear on why its needed or how they want the humans to use it.

I'm pretty sure the directions that come with it explain it somewhat although iirc it didn't go into super detail. At any rate, it's basically so that if you're using it as a DAC all the time you won't be constantly charging the battery-iBasso basically recommends that you let the battery drain down instead of constantly charging it. Lithium ion batteries don't like to be constantly kept at a maximum charge state so that actually does make sense although I believe their suggestion was to let it run down all the way before charging which isn't always so great for the Lithium ion cell life-also really annoying if you want to unplug it and use it as a portable amp for a portable music device because now you don't really know how much power is left in it.
At any rate the charge circuit actually should have a shut-off once the battery is fully charged but I'm not too clear myself on whether it's basically forcing you into using the battery at that point or whether it's kind of balancing the charge rate in a tiny trickle against the output use. Honestly you can probably just keep it in the charge position all the time when using it as a DAC so long as you let the battery run down about once a week.

 

[Sceptre]

I recall something about the charging circuit taking juice to operate. So when switched off, it saves battery juice! Sounds logical to me. Gives the user longer battery life!

Happy Listening

Sceptre

 

[pounce]

Quote:

Originally Posted by tekdemon /img/forum/go_quote.gif I'm pretty sure the directions that come with it explain it somewhat although iirc it didn't go into super detail.

I suppose if there were directions in the box I'd have more of a clue.

I really do get the concepts around the battery etc. I just think it's fraught with potential human error

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sceptre I recall something about the charging circuit taking juice to operate. So when switched off, it saves battery juice! Sounds logical to me. Gives the user longer battery life!

Ok, now that is just silly. It takes power to charge the battery so don't charge the battery to save battery... heh...


The only other thing I can think of is that if the charge circuit isn't actually doing a double conversion then while the unit is in charge it may have the potential to add some level of interference or degrade sound quality.

 

[HiFlight]

Lithium batteries have a finite number of re-charging cycles. By adding the switch, iBasso has provided a method for the user to avoid unnecessary charging cycles, charging only when necessary.

 

[pounce]

Quote:

Originally Posted by HiFlight /img/forum/go_quote.gif Lithium batteries have a finite number of re-charging cycles. By adding the switch, iBasso has provided a method for the user to avoid unnecessary charging cycles, charging only when necessary.

Yes, its been repeated a few times.

I'd prefer a better charging circuit if the only purpose of the switch if to extend the battery life by making the human owner think about their technology limitations. It's not very common.


It's just hard for me to wrap my head around the expected use case for the product if using the USB input.

Plug in USB
Flip switch to charge
Turn on unit and listen
Wait some time until battery would seem to have a full charge
Switch from charge
Listen until the low power light flashes
Flip switch to charge
Wait some time until battery would seem to have a full charge
Switch from charge
Rinse and repeat
...

Now, if the case was that the device used USB power when it was using the USB input THEN it makes more sense to have the switch. The use case here would be that when it was in charge mode it's charging and maybe running off battery at the same time. The fact that the unit is always running off battery is what makes it different.

My usage of the device it probably going to be 90% USB.

As mentioned I'll post the official response from ibasso when I get it. I really don't want to be beating a dead horse here. I think it's good to get clarity on the feature.

 

[HiFlight]

Quote:

Originally Posted by pounce /img/forum/go_quote.gif ..................snip......................... As mentioned I'll post the official response from ibasso when I get it. I really don't want to be beating a dead horse here. I think it's good to get clarity on the feature.

I suspect that this is the reply you will receive from iBasso; to quote from the D10 instructional manual, in bold print, it reads:

"In order to extend the battery life, please always keep the charge switch on OFF position when it does not need to be charged".

If the idea of switching the charging circuit off when the D10 does not need charging annoys you, simply leave it on all the time.

 

[qusp]

Quote:

Originally Posted by pounce /img/forum/go_quote.gif Yes, its been repeated a few times.

yes, but although you say you do, it seems you arent getting it, but instead are trying to overcomplicate what is actually quite a simple concept. dont mean this to sound harsh, just seems you wont accept what is a pretty reasonable explanation IMO

 

[pounce]

Quote:

Originally Posted by qusp /img/forum/go_quote.gif yes, but although you say you do, it seems you arent getting it, but instead are trying to overcomplicate what is actually quite a simple concept. dont mean this to sound harsh, just seems you wont accept what is a pretty reasonable explanation IMO

I'm sorry, but I really do understand it. Honest. Really. Perhaps I haven't been verbose enough

*At the same time* I think it's a poor design and that it would be better handled by changing the charge circuit. I don't want to be critical so I was truly looking for a real reason for the lack of a better charge design that didn't require a switch.

Anyone out there have a laptop as their main workstation at work in a dock? How many people think there should be a switch you need to maintain for the battery?

Is there some benefit from not operating on USB when using USB? I will find out.