[465176]

I haven't read the forums much these last couple of months and I must not of seen/read anything about Chord's QC issues. Can someone let me know what the QC issues were ?

My TT2 has a very low serial number ( 200's) and if QC problems have just been found recently, it's likely that my TT2 will suffer from said QC issue's.

Can anyone here shed some light on what the QC issue's that Rob mentioned were.

Cheers

This was just solely referring to those (very few) of us that can hear a high-pitched whistle whenever the green information display lights up, and then it’s only on certain groupings of letters and for a few seconds. Rob mentioned Chord were now aware of the issue. It doesn’t seem to bother most, only those with a TT2 very close to their listening area. Other than that, it’s a blindingly good DAC!

 

[Sound Eq]

is there a reason you are selling your denon 9200 sound eq? it's on my shortlist for my next headphone.

well no specific reason except that I invested in many totl iems to be used on the go

 

[JM1979]

FWIW, Rob Watts prefers the max crossfeed (3):

very interesting. Thanks for finding that.

I keep my crossfeed on 1 but will give 3 a longer try, let me brain adjust and see how i like it.

 

[betula]

very interesting. Thanks for finding that.

I keep my crossfeed on 1 but will give 3 a longer try, let me brain adjust and see how i like it.

I think it is headphone dependent. I prefer the Empyreans on crossfeed 2 and no filters.

 

[Sound Eq]

Well I spent so so so many hours just figuring out bout if I will like cross feed

Well I tried using cross feed on number 2, and it was just not natural to me, listening to cross feed especially the placement of the vocals in the beginning of the song Amnesia by dead can dance, the vocals felt as if not being part of the song and just strange . I am sorry if my terms used are not that accurate, so listen to that song and evaluate it yourself to understand what I am talking bout

If you like try, the song Amnesia by dead can dance from the same titled album. So I will not for now use cross feed but I will use filter 3 ( warm ) . My headphones which are Hifiman He1000SE are very revealing to smallest things like that. Actually using cross feed really caused ear fatigue to me compared to no cross feed

Maybe we should send @Rob Watts a better headphone than his Aeon , I will keep my opinion bout that headphone to myself, but wow Hugo tt2 as a dac/amp is just amazing no need for my ifi ican pro to be in the chain at all. I think the benefit of using cross feed will depend on the headphone that you have, a great headphone as Hifiman HE1000SE which has amazing imaging does not need any cross feed.

The tests I am busy now with are all those filters in HQ Player, as I still can not for sure determine if I like up-sampling or not using HQ Player

 

[JaZZ]

For me it's exactly the opposite: without crossfeed the sound is unnatural, irritating and fatiguing – how much, depends on the recording. Music with low frequencies appearing just in one channel (not too rare in speaker-based recordings) is unlistenable. (Headphone: HiFiMan HE1000se)

 

[Sound Eq]

For me it's exactly the opposite: without crossfeed the sound is unnatural, irritating and fatiguing – how much, depends on the recording. Music with low frequencies appearing just in one channel (not too rare in speaker-based recordings) is unlistenable. (Headphone: HiFiMan HE1000se)

can you try that song, and tell me your thoughts, no upsampling no mscaler no nothing

also what do you mean by " Music with low frequencies appearing just in one channel ", could it be that you have driver imbalance, which so common with planars believe me I had my share of such issues with alot of totl planars, thanks god my he1000se does not suffer from such issue, but man so many totl planars did

 

[JaZZ]

can you try that song, and tell me your thoughts, no upsampling no mscaler no nothing

Esoteric, very wide, bordering on disruption, without crossfeed. With crossfeed engaged, the soundstage is more compact, earthly and natural, also warmer, a real relief for my ears. Unfortunately Rob's crossfeed has a built-in bass boost, which is particularly detrimental to Brendan Perry's full sounding voice on this recording. That's why I can't get past crossfeed 1; without the bass boost I probably would listen with crossfeed 3. – Maybe it's the bass boost which turns you off, not crossfeed per se?

also what do you mean by " Music with low frequencies appearing just in one channel ", could it be that you have driver imbalance, which so common with planars believe me I had my share of such issues with alot of totl planars, thanks god my he1000se does not suffer from such issue, but man so many totl planars did

Many recordings meant for speakers have some bassy instrument placed in proximity of one microphone or are mixed correspondingly within the stereo panorama, so that low frequencies have an unnatural channel separation when listened to through headphones. The primary function of crossfeed is gradually monophonizing low frequencies for a (more) natural soundfield with headphones. (→ Low frequencies just in one ear is an unnatural sensual perception.)

BTW, why are you selling your HE1000se? (Your statement: «how will this be topped, endgame».)

 

[Sound Eq]

Esoteric, very wide, bordering on disruption, without crossfeed. With crossfeed engaged, the soundstage is more compact, earthly and natural, also warmer, a real relief for my ears. Unfortunatley Rob's crossfeed has a built-in bass boost, which is particularly detrimental to Brendan Perry's full sounding voice on this recording. That's why I can't get past crossfeed 1; without the bass boost I probably would listen with crossfeed 3. – Maybe it's the bass boost which turns you off, not crossfeed per se?


Many recordings meant for speakers have some bassy instrument placed in proximity of one microphone or are mixed correspondingly within the stereo panorama, so that low frequencies have an unnatural channel separation when listened to through headphones. The primary function of crossfeed is gradually monophonizing low frequencies for a (more) natural soundfield with headphones. (→ Low frequencies just in one ear is an unnatural sensual perception.)

that is very interesting and could explain why I felt that brendan's voice was a bit off with crossfeed 2

 

[musickid]

betula does the empyrean comfort, fit and overall feel vary greatly from leather to suede pads?

 

[betula]

betula does the empyrean comfort, fit and overall feel vary greatly from leather to suede pads?

About the same to me. Velour feels a bit nicer on the skin but I prefer the sound of the leather pads.

 

[Christer]

Esoteric, very wide, bordering on disruption, without crossfeed. With crossfeed engaged, the soundstage is more compact, earthly and natural, also warmer, a real relief for my ears. Unfortunately Rob's crossfeed has a built-in bass boost, which is particularly detrimental to Brendan Perry's full sounding voice on this recording. That's why I can't get past crossfeed 1; without the bass boost I probably would listen with crossfeed 3. – Maybe it's the bass boost which turns you off, not crossfeed per se?


Many recordings meant for speakers have some bassy instrument placed in proximity of one microphone or are mixed correspondingly within the stereo panorama, so that low frequencies have an unnatural channel separation when listened to through headphones. The primary function of crossfeed is gradually monophonizing low frequencies for a (more) natural soundfield with headphones. (→ Low frequencies just in one ear is an unnatural sensual perception.)

BTW, why are you selling your HE1000se? (Your statement: «how will this be topped, endgame».)

Hmm, what you say imho only applies to badly balanced recordings not well made ones.

Crossfeed is where I strongly disagree with Rob.

Crossfeed 3 on my now dead H1 sounded more out the head yes, but a very mixed changed balance, and not realistic.

I partly bought Qutest over H2 for my travels, to get away from accidental crossfeed since it is as you say "a way of monophonizing low frequences".

And with LOTS and LOTS of my WELL balanced and well mastered symphonic classical masterfiles Crossfeed changes the ACTUAL balance and moves deep bass instruments like cellos and string basses ,some brass and percussion like Gongs, bass drum and tympani, into a mid position I know they should NOT BE in most cases.

Crossfeed can imho NOT improve on well balanced recordings at all.

On the contrary, it does the opposite, it creates a false incorrect, unfocused orchestral balance of bass instruments that in most cases deviates from the real placement of those instruments on stage.
Why would anyone want that?

With the main 3 classical labels where I have direct references to both the live sound and instrument placements on stage in the hall and playback via both headphones and speakers, without ANY exception they sound most realistic and closer to the actual stage and sound of the orchestra in the hall sound with absolutely NO crossfeed.
And not only that.
Everytime these recordings have been monitored and balanced, also via headphones.

As far as I know and have seen,all the big labels in the industry monitor and balance recordings via headphones from start in my experience.
The VERY few examples of bass in one channel only, in classical music are such exceptions and bad jobs done, that they can be ignored imho.

To mention just one good opposite example:

Jared Sacks of Channel Classics monitors and balances mostly directly at sessions, via both headphones and multichannel speaker setup in the monitoring room. And his recordings are a model of their kind in how an orchestra actually sounds live in a very good hall via any good system.
Cross feed changes that orginal stage balance and is again imho,NOT recommended for anyone who actually wants to hear his recordings via headphones as close as possible to how he actually manages to recreate the image of the orchestra as it sounds live in the hall.

For me that both IS and SHOULD be the ultimate goal of both headphone listening and via speakers.

REAL HIFI!

Speaker listening as such is NOT my reference.

In some respects well recorded binaural via headphones is the closest most of us mere mortals with limited funds and rooms, can get to real live sound in a good hall without getting ruined.

Two speakers are actually not enough to recreate an orchestra as it sounds live in a good hall.

Two speakers even huge and very resolving ones, like mine,are still a compromise.

The reference for me ,and the classical engineers I know is how close to the live sound in the hall one can get both in timbre,resolution and actual, on stage in the hall, balance.

All three of the labels I have worked with actually record in MCH and playback via 4-5 or more speakers is the ideal way to listen to them.
But even via headphones,artificially shifting bass frequences towards mono and artifical bass lifting with crossfeed is not anything any well balanced classical music recording benefits from imho.

With several big open headphones the bass lift you mention, in itself is an issue one could discuss.
Cross Feed 3 via H1 and the HD800S for example,sounded clearly bloated and far from the actual references to how things should sound I have.

Regarding Aeon headphones, the first model is/was I suppose a good compromise on flights or other noisy environments.
Not bad at all.
Better than most closed ones I've heard in fact.
I could probably get used to them if I HAD to.

But I almost never listen to music on my many flights.

I either eat,drink, sleep, or watch movies, or a combination of those on long haul flights.
And when I arrive at my hotel I make sure my room is quiet enough for me to set up my Q/HMS and either HD800 or HEKV2 to really listen to music as I want to, before checking in.


The Aeons I have auditioned a couple of times also via TT2/HMS,were not really comparable to full size open headphones like my HD800 or HEKV2, with really demanding large scale symphonic material, imho.
"You can't get more than a pint out of a pint bottle" leaps to mind again, regarding smallish closed headphones like the Aeons..
Cheers CC awaiting the storm of attacks....
Meanwhile Merry Christmas to you all.

 

[JaZZ]

Hmm, what you say imho only applies to badly balanced recordings not well made ones.

Well made recordings – meant to be reproduced through speakers – still can have an arbitrary channel imbalance at low frequencies. Which doesn't derogate from a passably natural soundfield, since low frequencies always reach both ears with little loudness differences. This in your everyday experience as well as with speaker reproduction. Therefore speaker-based recordings aren't fully compatible with headphones – since headphones make for 100% channel separation. Apparently it's a matter of individual sensitivity as to how tolerant you are towards such an acoustic mismatch. I count myself unlucky to be extremely sensitive in this respect. And I don't buy the scenario that I exclusively own bad recordings...

Note that monophonized low fequencies don't mean that bassy instruments appear in the center. Every acoustic instrument (double bass, tuba, bass drum...) also contains a lot of mids and highs, which are still placed correctly within the stereo panorama, and since low frequencies contribute little to nothing to localization, this doesn't affect the stereo effect in a negative way – theoretically, with an optimal crossfeed algorithm, in the same way as your ears do in a free-field environment.

Crossfeed is where I strongly disagree with Rob.

That's where I fully agree with you – but from a different perspective. I imagine that Chord's crossfeed is what you're referring to and possibly the only one you have experience with. So you might be in the same situation as Sound Eq: It's very well possible that what you dislike about crossfeed is in fact the tonal imbalance it creates – I guess it's impossible for you to differentiate between the two components since you don't use equalizers. After all that's my personal incompatibility with Rob's crossfeed: It adds way too much bass to be of any use for me (or the fact that it adds bass at all turns me off). I can't stand it. Apart from this issue it is excellent in my book. Fortunately I have occupied myself with crossfeed far before my occupation with Chord electronics and created my own version that suits me perfectly. I have to apply it to every single recording via a Wave editor, but it also pays off in that I can listen to my whole collection on the go, with just a DAP.

 

[Christer]

Well made recordings – meant to be reproduced through speakers – still can have an arbitrary channel imbalance at low frequencies. Which doesn't derogate from a passably natural soundfield, since low frequencies always reach both ears with little loudness differences. This in your everyday experience as well as with speaker reproduction. Therefore speaker-based recordings aren't fully compatible with headphones – since headphones make for 100% channel separation. Apparently it's a matter of individual sensitivity as to how tolerant you are towards such an acoustic mismatch. I count myself unlucky to be extremely sensitive in this respect. And I don't buy the scenario that I exclusively own bad recordings...

Note that monophonized low fequencies don't mean that bassy instruments appear in the center. Every acoustic instrument (double bass, tuba, bass drum...) also contains a lot of mids and highs, which are still placed correctly within the stereo panorama, and since low frequencies contribute little to nothing to localization, this doesn't affect the stereo effect in a negative way – theoretically, with an optimal crossfeed algorithm, in the same way as your ears do in a free-field environment.



That's where I fully agree with you – but from a different perspective. I imagine that Chord's crossfeed is what you're referring to and possibly the only one you have experience with. So you might be in the same situation as Sound Eq: It's very well possible that what you dislike about crossfeed is in fact the tonal imbalance it creates – I guess it's impossible for you to differentiate between the two components since you don't use equalizers. After all that's my personal incompatibility with Rob's crossfeed: It adds way too much bass to be of any use for me (or the fact that it adds bass at all turns me off). I can't stand it. Apart from this issue it is excellent in my book. Fortunately I have occupied myself with crossfeed far before my occupation with Chord electronics and created my own version that suits me perfectly. I have to apply it to every single recording via a Wave editor, but it also pays off in that I can listen to my whole collection on the go, with just a DAP.

Thanks, and my post was of course not intended to assume that you or anyone else has bad recordings.
No offence intended, and I am aware of the isolation effects of headphones with anything but real binaural recordings.
But recording engineers used to hearing a live orchestra via headphones and mic feed are aware of them and know how to master and balance at sessions or later to minimize and compensate for those effects And of course in a way that is what cross feed tries to do as well.
But post mastering.
And I prefer not to mess more with it by employing crossfeed on top of compensations already made by the engineer.
Of course if one doesn't really know how things sounded live it can be a pleasing effect to have things moved further out of your head. And with thin little bass shy, closed headphones that extra bass may sound impressive too.

But I didn't like the out of focus and artificial bass lift my H1 delivered and the less transparent SQ.
And as you say shifted tonal balance it introduced to bass instruments.
I guess there are ways of doing it that are less intrusive?

The only experience I really have of Crossfeed, is the Chord version and I don't like it much. I prefer real binaural recordings for better more realistic out of the head sound from headphones.

But with good headphones like the ones I now have, HD800 and HEKV2, or even my old electrostatic Jecklin Floats with its forward angled huge earpieces or the RAAL or the also oldish AKG K1000 earspeakers, Jared is using, I have no need to artifically move things further away by adding more monophonizing and basslift, really.

I know you are recommending equalization and maybe you are correct in doing so even with the headphones types/ models we have in common?

I haven't tried it for many many years but I did have an amp in my youth with what was then called a Formant Control, on top of the usual treble and bass controls most amps had in those days, which I played around with so much that I accidentically got used to a very exaggerated treble that I later did NOT hear from live violins at concerts.
But In my late teens the real live concerts and rehearsals of symphonic music, I heard much more regularly, made me change my preferences and now I know what a violin or a wind instrument or a piano sounds like live AND in different acoustics.
I have a piano in my listening room now and it makes some SQ reference checking more direct than ever before, for me.
Quite honestly, what a mess some big label solo piano recordings are, image wise.
Recordings of Piano Concertos are normally a slightly, different matter.
With those I can accept a fuzzier more diffuse piano image, than from recital and solo recordings.
Those I actually quite like dry and in my room, because I can accommodate them as I hear my piano live in my room.
But I can't squeeze in a full orchestra, I need the recording of suchmusic to transport ME to the hall as realistically as possible.

But even quite deep bass can actually sound more directional than most would expect in theory.

I have absolutely no difficulty hearing ,without seeing him or her,at a live concert where that bass drum or Tuba player is.

Even the deepest bass notes of say Beethoven's mighty Opus 111 sonata ,although they rumble around quite a bit especially with lots of pedal used, emanate from the very bottom LEFT from a real piano.
And imho should do so from a recording too.

But some recordings are so excuse my saying so , "f....d up", that bass and the treble are either almost completely reversed from what you'd hear actually sitting at the piano, that I sometimes have to shift channels both via headphones and speakers to get at least a bit closer to the real thing with some recordings of the works I am sniffing a bit at,and at worst just a big mess.
With quite a few there is already such a mess that I suppose crossfeed can't make it worse than it already is? Maybe just move it all a bit further away...


Cheers and Merry Christmas CC

 

[betula]

I find this talk against crossfeed interesting. I know crossfeed in general can be a bit dodgy, but on Chord gear I actually like it.

Without crossfeed on the TT2 I find the sound somehow falling apart, not as coherent. Perhaps because I am so used to crossfeed 2 by now. No crossfeed feels like listening to two separate two dimensional 'sheets' of music next to my two ears instead of a 3D picture.

It is a bit like with your eyes. If you cover one of your eyes and than change to the other eye you see your environment from two slightly different angles. These two angles give you the ability to see in 3D. As I have heard, people with one eye only loose their ability to see in 3D, they are actually unable to judge depth, distance accurately.

To my ears, Chord's crossfeed gives you the ability of 3D vision with your ears. Whether it is level 1,2 or 3 I think is headphone dependent. With the Empyrean I hear the 'two sheets' of 2D sound walls becoming 3D when using level 2 crossfeed. This gives me a sharp 3D image. Level 3 a bit feels like I am overturning the 'objective' and loosing focus again.

Anyway, I am really enjoying crossfeed on TT2 and couldn't really go back to not using it. Just my two cents.