[Sonic Defender]

To what else could a live performance have better fidelity than itself?

If one has a studio produced recording of the same music.

 

[Christer]

If one has a studio produced recording of the same music.

OMG, here we go again.Your complete lack of logic makes me think of the wise words :
"Everyone is entitled to their own opinions, but NOT their own facts."
I am repeatedly baffled that over and over again it has to be explained and defined on these threads, what HIFI is and can only be about ,ie to reproduce the actual live sound of UNAMPLIFIED INSTRUMENTS and the HUMAN VOICE as close as technically possible to how they generally sound live in a good acoustics hall.
HIFI stands for HIGH FIDELITY.
Yes, not everyone can be in the conductor's position or afford the best seats in the hall depending upon ones preferences of perspective and balance , and such weak excuses made by those who can not differentiate between facts and subjective preferences may "sound" like strong points to raise for some here.
But there is simply NO explaining away the undeniable fact that the "Real Thing" and the only Real Reference Point , here is the LIVE sound of unamplified instruments and the human voice against recorded and reproduced versions of it.

How difficult can it really get for some here to get that FACT sorted once and for all?

Amplified Instruments like Electric Guitars with inhererent VERY HIGH distortions and other Electronica and discussions of how they sound via whatever recording and reproduction chain used to play them back, belong in a completely different category than HIFI and CAN NOT and does not, sort under what HIFI at least once upon a time, used to stand for.
HIGH FIDELITY! "And now for something completely different" leaps to mind.
No wonder that Rob sometime feels like he is "banging his head againt a wall".
Cheers CC

 

[AndrewOld]

If one has a studio produced recording of the same music.

How is listening to a studio produced recording on a hifi more faithful than listening to the same performance in a concert hall? What is more “faithful” about the studio recording? To what is it ”more faithful”?

 

[Sonic Defender]

How is listening to a studio produced recording on a hifi more faithful than listening to the same performance in a concert hall? What is more “faithful” about the studio recording? To what is it ”more faithful”?

Well, depending on the music and the creative intent of the artists the music may have been conceptualized and created completely in very small spaces and not even imagined as a live performance.

There are many accounts of albums created where the artists talk about how hard it was to recreate their vision live. You seem to have a somewhat rigid viewpoint that somehow live performances are real and recorded versions are the poorer cousin. Not for me.

I will absolutely conceed that orchestral music and chamber music is almost certainly always conceptualized and intended to be experienced live, but those are a very, very, very small portion of the music consumed on this planet.

 

[Sonic Defender]

OMG, here we go again.Your complete lack of logic makes me think of the wise words :
"Everyone is entitled to their own opinions, but NOT their own facts."
I am repeatedly baffled that over and over again it has to be explained and defined on these threads, what HIFI is and can only be about ,ie to reproduce the actual live sound of UNAMPLIFIED INSTRUMENTS and the HUMAN VOICE as close as technically possible to how they generally sound live in a good acoustics hall.
HIFI stands for HIGH FIDELITY.
Yes, not everyone can be in the conductor's position or afford the best seats in the hall depending upon ones preferences of perspective and balance , and such weak excuses made by those who can not differentiate between facts and subjective preferences may "sound" like strong points to raise for some here.
But there is simply NO explaining away the undeniable fact that the "Real Thing" and the only Real Reference Point , here is the LIVE sound of unamplified instruments and the human voice against recorded and reproduced versions of it.

How difficult can it really get for some here to get that FACT sorted once and for all?

Amplified Instruments like Electric Guitars with inhererent VERY HIGH distortions and other Electronica and discussions of how they sound via whatever recording and reproduction chain used to play them back, belong in a completely different category than HIFI and CAN NOT and does not, sort under what HIFI at least once upon a time, used to stand for.
HIGH FIDELITY! "And now for something completely different" leaps to mind.
No wonder that Rob sometime feels like he is "banging his head againt a wall".
Cheers CC

There are so many assumptions and generealising above that I'll decline to take the bait. You are entitled to your "facts" no problem at all.

 

[AndrewOld]

Well, depending on the music and the creative intent of the artists the music may have been conceptualized and created completely in very small spaces and not even imagined as a live performance.

There are many accounts of albums created where the artists talk about how hard it was to recreate their vision live. You seem to have a somewhat rigid viewpoint that somehow live performances are real and recorded versions are the poorer cousin. Not for me.

I will absolutely conceed that orchestral music and chamber music is almost certainly always conceptualized and intended to be experienced live, but those are a very, very, very small portion of the music consumed on this planet.

I hoped I had made it clear I was talking about classical music.

 

[jarnopp]

To what else could a live performance have better fidelity than itself?

Not to stay too far off topic, but I agree nothing can have more Fidelity, or rather, reproduction strives to faithfully reproduce, the original, unamplified musical event. However, there are many seats and venues. We can assume that only a handful are “the best” in a reference way, or that people have preferences for front, mid, etc. listening positions. Given that, the best most of us can do is look for a recording in an optimal venue with great technique and try to reproduce that as best you can. Otherwise, you are getting an experience, which may be enjoyable, but may not be good sounding as the best recording of a work. And, if your preferences are not for live, unamplified music, but more produced sounds, then go for it. In those cases, it’s interesting to see how the live event strives to be a faithful reproduction of the produced work! (Think something like Pink Floyd’s “The Wall” concerts in the late 70s.)

Edit: Probably The Wall Rob is banging his head against. Also, Christer, we don’t disagree that live unamplified music is the reference, but people still don’t want to reproduce the sound of standing at the back of the Vienna Opera House for $1 euro, they want the best seats, so reproduction to the best reference hall/position/technique is critical. I trust from Rob’s design and reviewers like you that that is happening, and so I can feel confident that listening to my preferred, usually produced, music I am getting the best Fidelity possible, also.

 

[Kentajalli]

Not to stay too far off topic, but I agree nothing can have more Fidelity, or rather, reproduction strives to faithfully reproduce, the original, unamplified musical event. However, there are many seats and venues. We can assume that only a handful are “the best” in a reference way, or that people have preferences for front, mid, etc. listening positions. Given that, the best most of us can do is look for a recording in an optimal venue with great technique and try to reproduce that as best you can. Otherwise, you are getting an experience, which may be enjoyable, but may not be good sounding as the best recording of a work. And, if your preferences are not for live, unamplified music, but more produced sounds, then go for it. In those cases, it’s interesting to see how the live event strives to be a faithful reproduction of the produced work! (Think something like Pink Floyd’s “The Wall” concerts in the late 70s.)

Edit: Probably The Wall Rob is banging his head against. Also, Christer, we don’t disagree that live unamplified music is the reference, but people still don’t want to reproduce the sound of standing at the back of the Vienna Opera House for $1 euro, they want the best seats, so reproduction to the best reference hall/position/technique is critical. I trust from Rob’s design and reviewers like you that that is happening, and so I can feel confident that listening to my preferred, usually produced, music I am getting the best Fidelity possible, also.

I'd like to hear a live version of 10cc's "I am not in love" that would beat the original recording.

For Classical? Hilary Hahn's Bach violin Concertos.

 

[miketlse]

OMG, here we go again.Your complete lack of logic makes me think of the wise words :
"Everyone is entitled to their own opinions, but NOT their own facts."
I am repeatedly baffled that over and over again it has to be explained and defined on these threads, what HIFI is and can only be about ,ie to reproduce the actual live sound of UNAMPLIFIED INSTRUMENTS and the HUMAN VOICE as close as technically possible to how they generally sound live in a good acoustics hall.
HIFI stands for HIGH FIDELITY.
Yes, not everyone can be in the conductor's position or afford the best seats in the hall depending upon ones preferences of perspective and balance , and such weak excuses made by those who can not differentiate between facts and subjective preferences may "sound" like strong points to raise for some here.
But there is simply NO explaining away the undeniable fact that the "Real Thing" and the only Real Reference Point , here is the LIVE sound of unamplified instruments and the human voice against recorded and reproduced versions of it.

How difficult can it really get for some here to get that FACT sorted once and for all?

Amplified Instruments like Electric Guitars with inhererent VERY HIGH distortions and other Electronica and discussions of how they sound via whatever recording and reproduction chain used to play them back, belong in a completely different category than HIFI and CAN NOT and does not, sort under what HIFI at least once upon a time, used to stand for.
HIGH FIDELITY! "And now for something completely different" leaps to mind.
No wonder that Rob sometime feels like he is "banging his head againt a wall".
Cheers CC

You are stirring the hornets nest a bit.
However I think there a few posters who don't realise what your acronym CC stands for.

 

[Christer]

I'd like to hear a live version of 10cc's "I am not in love" that would beat the original recording.



For Classical? Hilary Hahn's Bach violin Concertos.

It is certainly NOT often on these threads that someone uses both a recording and a musical genre where Sound Quality really matters trying to prove their point. But here is one that I can both relate to and also recommend. No I am not referring to your 1st example which I haven't got the faintest idea what it is. And could not be bothered to find out what it is. But Hilary Hahn playing Bach! Now we are talking both truly Great Music by one of the most gifted of ALL composers of Classical Music of the past. And also one of the best recordings I know of from a label not exactly famous for top quality SQ.
I agree both performance-wise and SQ-wise it stands as a good example of how good even 16/44.1. can sound Mscaled.
I am limited to Qutest /Mscaler and a Benchmark HGC2 headphone amp via my HEKV2 or HD 800, or my ML electrostatic speakers and amp,but I know that via for example Dave/Mscaler and a Woo Audio Wa 33 or Wells Audio headphone amp and HFM Susvara this recording can sound even closer to how a violin and and a Chamber Orchestra sound live under good conditions in a good hall.
I have a handful of native hi res masterfiles from labels where I have been at the actual sessions both in the hall and in the monitoring room. thouh not at the same time. I humbly reserve such superposition feats to the realm of Quant Physics.
But even truly excellent dac combos like Dave/ Mscaler have their audible limitations if one can compare to real live sound and actually any recording format or reproduction chain I have heard so far . There is still quite an audible gap between an ideal situation live sound and recorded with UNAMPLIFIED INSTRUMENTS.
Rob is trying to close that gap, and I wish him luck in trying to do so . And since he has spent the past 5 years working on narrowing "closing" that gap still to be closed, I look forward to hearing what he has got up his sleeve after both Mscaler 1 and DAVE.
But will I be able to afford them? Theoretically yes . But I have both limited economic resources AND other priorities in life than achieving ultimate cost no object SQ.
I saw a Dave for sale at 6000€ online today again.
But it still needs to go down in price considerably lower than this,for me to bite.
I could have bought one new for that price in Indonesia a few years ago.
Cheers CC

 

[Reactcore]

I saw a Dave for sale at 6000€ online today again.

You mean this one?


I would go for it if you can.
Your appreciation for Sq is worth it.
And the resale value wont drop much.

 

[Christer]

You mean this one?


I would go for it if you can.
Your appreciation for Sq is worth it.
And the resale value wont drop much.

Thanks , but I am still "sitting things" out. I know well what I am missing.
BUT
Patience is a virtue and I am a penny-pinching old b...... with other more pressing needs to meet.
Dave is not exactly "travel friendly" but I am.
I am also leaning towards TT2 as an upgrade from Qutest but would also like to hear what the "new" mscaler brings over the old before deciding on anything.
Now back to Hilary and heavenly Bach.
Cheers CC

 

[Widell]

You mean this one?


I would go for it if you can.
Your appreciation for Sq is worth it.
And the resale value wont drop much.

Hell I am tempted if I did not have the TT2/HMS.....

 

[Reactcore]

Thanks , but I am still "sitting things" out. I know well what I am missing.
BUT
Patience is a virtue and I am a penny-pinching old b...... with other more pressing needs to meet.
Dave is not exactly "travel friendly" but I am.
I am also leaning towards TT2 as an upgrade from Qutest but would also like to hear what the "new" mscaler brings over the old before deciding on anything.
Now back to Hilary and heavenly Bach.
Cheers CC

I just know youre following the Dave thread from start (7 years) liking it all the time.

Besides theres a chance 2nd hand Dave's get more popular and costly again once their new 'upgrade' is released..

 

[Kentajalli]

It is certainly NOT often on these threads that someone uses both a recording and a musical genre where Sound Quality really matters trying to prove their point. But here is one that I can both relate to and also recommend. No I am not referring to your 1st example which I haven't got the faintest idea what it is. And could not be bothered to find out what it is. But Hilary Hahn playing Bach! Now we are talking both truly Great Music by one of the most gifted of ALL composers of Classical Music of the past. And also one of the best recordings I know of from a label not exactly famous for top quality SQ.
I agree both performance-wise and SQ-wise it stands as a good example of how good even 16/44.1. can sound Mscaled.
I am limited to Qutest /Mscaler and a Benchmark HGC2 headphone amp via my HEKV2 or HD 800, or my ML electrostatic speakers and amp,but I know that via for example Dave/Mscaler and a Woo Audio Wa 33 or Wells Audio headphone amp and HFM Susvara this recording can sound even closer to how a violin and and a Chamber Orchestra sound live under good conditions in a good hall.
I have a handful of native hi res masterfiles from labels where I have been at the actual sessions both in the hall and in the monitoring room. thouh not at the same time. I humbly reserve such superposition feats to the realm of Quant Physics.
But even truly excellent dac combos like Dave/ Mscaler have their audible limitations if one can compare to real live sound and actually any recording format or reproduction chain I have heard so far . There is still quite an audible gap between an ideal situation live sound and recorded with UNAMPLIFIED INSTRUMENTS.
Rob is trying to close that gap, and I wish him luck in trying to do so . And since he has spent the past 5 years working on narrowing "closing" that gap still to be closed, I look forward to hearing what he has got up his sleeve after both Mscaler 1 and DAVE.
But will I be able to afford them? Theoretically yes . But I have both limited economic resources AND other priorities in life than achieving ultimate cost no object SQ.
I saw a Dave for sale at 6000€ online today again.
But it still needs to go down in price considerably lower than this,for me to bite.
I could have bought one new for that price in Indonesia a few years ago.
Cheers CC

Now that I have softened you up with Ms Hahn, let me try to get my message across a bit better.
But before that, regarding the song "I am not in love, by 10CC". I bet you anything, that you know the song! and after the first few bars, you will start to humm it. One of the catchiest songs ever.
That Hilary Hahn album, is a fantastic performance (a bit fast tempo-ed) , it is punchy, sweet, crystal clear, could do with a little treble lift (just a little) but it is a Manufactured Album. Such a sound, in my opinion and experience, can not happen Live (been to many many concerts over the years, including Ms Hahn herself).
The way it is recorded, mixed and engineered, has a lot to do with the final sound quality and musical satisfaction, one gets from it.
Going back to 10cc, that song is also a manufactured song. The famous, catchy choral voices, was recorded, re-recorded and then re-recorded again. It was mixed many times over, to come up with the final sound. Even 10cc themselves, couldn't faithfully reproduce it. The art of recording it, was part of the performance.
Of course, we all know what Hifi really means. It means faithful to the original.
But what if the original was never Live ?
Hifi does not mean truthful to Live , does it?
You want live classical recordings, get some Russian radio recordings of David Oistrakh, not the EMI recordings. Then hear what live recordings can sound like.

This is also mixed and tweaked, but you get a good ambience.
A fantastic album, with Khachaturian himself, conducting.