Hugo M Scaler by Chord Electronics - The Official Thread

[dac64]

There is a member here on Headfi who has a ~$60K server setup going into a Dragonfly, while he is waiting for his Dave to be delivered. He's joking about it–but not completely.

My PC has a toslink out. Will it block all those noises from the PC to a dac? TIA

 

[The Jester]

My PC has a toslink out. Will it block all those noises from the PC to a dac? TIA

Yes and no ...
yes it won’t transfer any ground plane noises that USB might ...
and no it won’t block any noises generated inside the PC that affect the signal before it gets to the toslink transmitter ..

 

[GreenBow]

Interesting, I think the exact opposite. I think people generally understand that noise from the source/network/server/player affect all DACs. I think people talk as if it affects all DACs but Dave, because claims that are made about Dave's uniqueness.



We are talking about two different things. I use an Innuos Phoenix which uses an external OCXO as a master to reclock the digital signal received by the USB. This affects the timing of samples in the data packets to the DAC's USB receiver chip. This is entirely different than using a master clock to discipline a DACs internal word clock, which times the samples to the DACs decoder chip. The latter is what is happening when you add, e.g., a Rossini master clock to improve the Bartok.

Rob Watts does not believe the Dave's internal word clock can be improved by adding an external master clock because of his unique pulse array design. I'm sure he is right and, at any rate, there is no way to access the Dave's internal clock. It has no master clock input like the Bartok. However, no matter what claims are made about the USB receiver chip being immune to jitter, the addition of an external clock at this point clearly improves the sound. Whether this is due purely to the improved timing of the reclocking or the superior power supply used in the innuos I don't know. The result indicates that the Dave is not immune to the benefits of a cleaner signal.

I'm on the fence to a point. Or rather I am always open minded about this topic.

I do have one question though. Isn't it more than just the signal is sent to the DAC USB receiver chip. Isn't there a buffer? Meaning no matter how accurate the signal is timed when sent. The samples have sat in memory for a very short time.

On USB there is a buffer because if a sample is lost, it can be resent for. Doesn't it mean that once the samples have sat in memory, any send clock timing is gone. Besides Chord DACs use their clocks to time rate the sent for samples anyway.

I might be wrong though. I have no idea about the buffer or what happens.

I know of the Innuos Re-clocker review; £2000 unit. (I think that is the one I am thinking of.) … The reviewer sais the music was way better. … Well that was most likely tested with a DAC that is not iso-asynchronous. ….. Like I was saying about the Mojo, surely even the Mojo clock counteracts any external clocking.

Then again, folk have said "re-clockers work magic even with Chord". Who I am to argue?

 

[radnor]

I have two 23000mAh Poweradd. One powering the receiving end of the OPTO DX, the other one powering both the Mscaler and the transmitter via a Y-splitter. My listening session usually last 6 hours and the Poweradd for the HMS would have somewhere around 20% left. The one powering the OPTO DX receiver would have more than 80% left.

I would just plug in the battery before I sleep and it will be 100% when I wake up. It charges pretty fast.

Honestly, I thought it would be a lot of hassles before I setup everything. As it turns out, really not that bad. And, I bought the 23000mAh version because I plan to use them on plane with laptops. If you don’t need the travel option then definitely buy the higher capacity ones.

What kind of sq improvement by using these?

 

[jarnopp]

Yes and no ...
yes it won’t transfer any ground plane noises that USB might ...
and no it won’t block any noises generated inside the PC that affect the signal before it gets to the toslink transmitter ..

Can you explain what kind of noises generated in the PC would affect the toslink out? They would have to change the bitstream somewhat but not enough to hear dropouts. Is that what you are suggesting? It seems unlikely...

 

[The Jester]

I thought that too at one stage ...
PC CPU’s generate RFi into the GHz range which can add a bright or grainy quality .. PSU’s are electrically noisy too ..
don’t know the technical details but I’ve heard the audible results ...
as with USB a good PCI Card can make a noticeable difference compared to the on board outputs ...

 

[Triode User]

I'm on the fence to a point. Or rather I am always open minded about this topic.

I do have one question though. Isn't it more than just the signal is sent to the DAC USB receiver chip. Isn't there a buffer? Meaning no matter how accurate the signal is timed when sent. The samples have sat in memory for a very short time.

On USB there is a buffer because if a sample is lost, it can be resent for. Doesn't it mean that once the samples have sat in memory, any send clock timing is gone. Besides Chord DACs use their clocks to time rate the sent for samples anyway.

I might be wrong though. I have no idea about the buffer or what happens.

I know of the Innuos Re-clocker review; £2000 unit. (I think that is the one I am thinking of.) … The reviewer sais the music was way better. … Well that was most likely tested with a DAC that is not iso-asynchronous. ….. Like I was saying about the Mojo, surely even the Mojo clock counteracts any external clocking.

Then again, folk have said "re-clockers work magic even with Chord". Who I am to argue?

I have had the Innuos Phoenix on home demo for a few weeks which I tried connected to Dave and also tried it connected to the Mscaler + Dave. It made a big improvement to sound quality at least as much as its cost would suggest and possibly more.

 

[llamaluv]

I have two 23000mAh Poweradd. One powering the receiving end of the OPTO DX, the other one powering both the Mscaler and the transmitter via a Y-splitter. My listening session usually last 6 hours and the Poweradd for the HMS would have somewhere around 20% left. The one powering the OPTO DX receiver would have more than 80% left.

I would just plug in the battery before I sleep and it will be 100% when I wake up. It charges pretty fast.

Honestly, I thought it would be a lot of hassles before I setup everything. As it turns out, really not that bad. And, I bought the 23000mAh version because I plan to use them on plane with laptops. If you don’t need the travel option then definitely buy the higher capacity ones.

I use two 23000mAh Poweradd's as well for the Opto DX and M-Scaler. Because the battery bank powering the receiver end drains so slowly (~2% per hour!), it can still be close to 90% when the one powering the M-Scaler and ODX transmission unit gets below 15%. If I swap the two batteries at that point (which takes all of 30 seconds), an additional 4+ hours are possible before both units are close to fully discharged.

This makes it easy to get 8+ hours of playing time before having to recharge the two battery packs at the end of the day.

 

[edwardsean]

I'm on the fence to a point. Or rather I am always open minded about this topic.

I do have one question though. Isn't it more than just the signal is sent to the DAC USB receiver chip. Isn't there a buffer? Meaning no matter how accurate the signal is timed when sent. The samples have sat in memory for a very short time.

On USB there is a buffer because if a sample is lost, it can be resent for. Doesn't it mean that once the samples have sat in memory, any send clock timing is gone. Besides Chord DACs use their clocks to time rate the sent for samples anyway.

I might be wrong though. I have no idea about the buffer or what happens.

I know of the Innuos Re-clocker review; £2000 unit. (I think that is the one I am thinking of.) … The reviewer sais the music was way better. … Well that was most likely tested with a DAC that is not iso-asynchronous. ….. Like I was saying about the Mojo, surely even the Mojo clock counteracts any external clocking.

Then again, folk have said "re-clockers work magic even with Chord". Who I am to argue?

If you are referring to the USB signal buffering to the CRC register, I don't think it is engaged by the isosynchronous audio stream.

Again, I'm not sure of the exact underlying mechanisms that cause the benefits produced by the Phoenix, but they are not subtle. This is assuming a highly resolving system. I can't help but think that part of what I'm hearing is the carefully implemented OCXO. But, as we've all come to learn, if power supply is not king, it is at least high in the royalty. The closer in the chain you get to any DAC, including DAVE, the more benefit from power supply. The Phoenix's Sean Jacobs designed PS is world class.

 

[S-O8]

Thanks! Much appreciated. I've gotten my power cables squared away (and it made a meaningful improvement), so the digital interconnects are next up. As they say, everything matters!

If anyone else has recommendations on BNC cables, I'm all ears.

The Chord BNC made the music very 'accurate' and clear without highlighting any area IMO. I have used the same USB cable from my Mac and find it too sharp ... it is so clear the treble is a bit sharp for my liking. This has reduced hugely over 100 hours use ... I know, people don't like this kind of comment, but the insulation may have adjusted to the cable ... I don't know ! I do know it is not as piercing as it was and is just the right side of 'ok' . With my Vetere D-Fi it was perfect IMO. That was off for repair so when back (tomorrow) hopefully, I will know whether the £400 Vetere is better for me than the £800 Chord Signature Super Aray as a USB. Time will tell.

 

[dac64]

For guys who have the Opto DX, and why you still need to battery M-Scaler? Thanks!

 

[radnor]

It's the most bizarre aspect of the M scaler. Perception of reverb, depth and small detail resolution is about how accurate small signal are reproduced in terms of amplitude (small signal amplitude linearity); so make sure a 90 dB signal is actually at -90.000 dB (with bizarrely lots of 0's) - something conventional DAC's are poor at doing. But I have never heard increasing tap length (with same filter architecture so same amplitude linearity) changing the perception of reverb or depth - until the M scaler. My only observation is the M scaler process' 1.438 seconds of data; and the RT60 for concert halls is 1 to 2 seconds. So this means the M scaler process data for about the same time period as the reverb time period. So perhaps this is something to do with this; but I am not convinced this is the explanation. I have heard a test recording of 768 kHz - and this too had the ability to hear reverb properly, exactly like an M scaler.

By hearing reverb properly, you can hear where the walls are, with distinct reverb coming from differing directions; without the M scaler, reverb just sounds like a muddle. Being able to perceive reverb correctly allows one to perceive depth correctly too.

This is a genuine puzzle for me, and more work is needed to understand fully what is going on.



People want to be able to hear the M scaler on and off quickly to do AB tests, and this allows that. It's not the best way to appreciate the benefits of M scaling, but it's good for shows and demoes.

hey Rob have you heard Princeton Plasma Physics Doc Edgar Choueiri's Bacch tech? He runs the 3D audio LAB at Princeton... and also the Electromagnetic and Plasma propulsion Lab for starcraft.... awesome guy and a good friend... his Bacch stuff is mind bending... the reverb is supernatural.... and speaker vanish

I will be using my soon to arrive DAVE with his bacch4 mac product on my Raidhos (tweeter failure on raidho should have back from EU soon) soon... will report back.... you should really look into his stuff... it is simply the biggest breakthrough in music since stereo.... id argue bigger. The fact that less than 200 people on earth are using this is mind boggling... i predict every high performance audio enthusiast will be using it within 5 years.

Article about recent NYC demo with Audeze founder/CTO new speakers:

https://www.soundstageglobal.com/in...hold-shocking-demos-at-the-chelsea-wine-vault

https://www.audiosciencereview.com/forum/index.php?threads/bacch4mac-pro-edition-a-report.2373/

 

[dac64]

hey Rob have you heard Princeton Plasma Physics Doc Edgar Choueiri's Bacch tech? He runs the 3D audio LAB at Princeton... and also the Electromagnetic and Plasma propulsion Lab for starcraft.... awesome guy and a good friend... his Bacch stuff is mind bending... the reverb is supernatural.... and speaker vanish

Before anything, it costs $54K. Am I right?

and this page summarised their range of products https://www.theoretica.us/bacch-sp.html

btw, according to one of the configurations, you don't need a Dave

 

[STR-1]

I do use Wave Stream cables, OPTO.DX and Poweradd packs (with M Scaler and both ends of OPTO).

I am looking at what might be done to reduce the impact of internally generated resonances in all the devices of my music system, including the M Scaler, hence the question.

It might be that there is little to be done with the M Scaler, and indeed early rather crude experiments with 1” cubes of various wood types and the weight of several books, as well as some Black Ravioli pads, have so far not brought about any meaningful changes, certainly not to the level they have with the DAVE. I will be getting some Stillpoint Ultra SS next week on a returnable basis, which I will be trying out on everything, so that will be a chance to see what high-tech can do.

Ok, I’ve now had time to play around with a few isolation bits and pieces. While I still have some way to go to try everything I have with every device in my music system, I have at least satisfied myself that some of these products can make a difference to the M Scaler.

When heard, the impact is certainly smaller than that heard with the other devices in my system, but is unmistakable. The products that do have impact under the chassis of the M Scaler (bypassing the feet) deliver a smidge more detail, weight and (perhaps) refinement, while placing the HRS DXP damping plate on top delivers even more weight. Unfortunately, the products that make the biggest difference from the small selection I have are the most expensive (Stillpoints Ultra SS, Quadraspire Qplus supports and HRS DPX damping plate), the cheaper Black Ravioli pads and far cheaper 1-inch wood cubes had negligible impact. So the bang per buck ratio from this selection is poor. This is very much YMMV territory and those willing to give it a go might not hear the same things I am hearing on my Innuos Statement/M Scaler/DAVE headphone system (also includes OPTO.DX, WAVE Stream cables, Sablon 2020 USB, and multiple Poweradd battery packs and double-regulated DXP power supplies). All my testing was done with M Scaler on an IKEA bamboo butchers block on my wood floor, and in the absence of any notable noise or vibration from inside or outside the house.

So no guarantees, no explanation as to why I hear the differences I hear, just a very brief report back on what I did with what, and what I heard. If I do keep any of the expensive products mentioned above it will be because they showed their worth with the DAVE or with the Statement. The return would be too small to consider buying for the M Scaler, but others might feel differently, and there might be cheaper and better products out there for the M Scaler.

 

[Malcyg]

Ok, I’ve now had time to play around with a few isolation bits and pieces. While I still have some way to go to try everything I have with every device in my music system, I have at least satisfied myself that some of these products can make a difference to the M Scaler.

When heard, the impact is certainly smaller than that heard with the other devices in my system, but is unmistakable. The products that do have impact under the chassis of the M Scaler (bypassing the feet) deliver a smidge more detail, weight and (perhaps) refinement, while placing the HRS DXP damping plate on top delivers even more weight. Unfortunately, the products that make the biggest difference from the small selection I have are the most expensive (Stillpoints Ultra SS, Quadraspire Qplus supports and HRS DPX damping plate), the cheaper Black Ravioli pads and far cheaper 1-inch wood cubes had negligible impact. So the bang per buck ratio from this selection is poor. This is very much YMMV territory and those willing to give it a go might not hear the same things I am hearing on my Innuos Statement/M Scaler/DAVE headphone system (also includes OPTO.DX, WAVE Stream cables, Sablon 2020 USB, and multiple Poweradd battery packs and double-regulated DXP power supplies). All my testing was done with M Scaler on an IKEA bamboo butchers block on my wood floor, and in the absence of any notable noise or vibration from inside or outside the house.

So no guarantees, no explanation as to why I hear the differences I hear, just a very brief report back on what I did with what, and what I heard. If I do keep any of the expensive products mentioned above it will be because they showed their worth with the DAVE or with the Statement. The return would be too small to consider buying for the M Scaler, but others might feel differently, and there might be cheaper and better products out there for the M Scaler.

Steve, I found similar results when I looked at this a few years ago, but I was using loudspeakers where the results may be slightly more significant, although I never tested with headphones so cannot be sure on that - but logic suggests that might be a reasonable assumption.

Oh, and it was with Blu II, not MS.