[Crgreen]

Placebo = Placebo are you able to measure the RFI and show it to us statistically? eg.. with actual measurement tools?

“Placebo = Placebo”. That’s just a tautology and doesn’t answer my question or explain what you mean.

Of course I can’t measure RFI - I wouldn’t know where to begin - but even Rob acknowledges that the chip produces RFI. He was the one who started the whole ferrite business!

And just because I can’t measure something doesn’t mean it doesn’t exist. I’m not in a position to measure many things, but that doesn’t mean they’re not there. And since you appear to have suggested solutions in the past (if I read your post correctly) you seem to accept that there’s an RFI issue, but I assume are one of the people who think it has little significance. That’s fine.

I’m at a bit of a loss to understand why some get so upset when the matter is raised. If it’s not a problem for you, why worry? Or is it like teenagers and sports fans - don’t say anything negative about something I really, really like?

 

[nomad777]

“Placebo = Placebo”. That’s just a tautology and doesn’t answer my question or explain what you mean.

Of course I can’t measure RFI - I wouldn’t know where to begin - but even Rob acknowledges that the chip produces RFI. He was the one who started the whole ferrite business!

And just because I can’t measure something doesn’t mean it doesn’t exist. I’m not in a position to measure many things, but that doesn’t mean they’re not there. And since you appear to have suggested solutions in the past (if I read your post correctly) you seem to accept that there’s an RFI issue, but I assume are one of the people who think it has little significance. That’s fine.

I’m at a bit of a loss to understand why some get so upset when the matter is raised. If it’s not a problem for you, why worry? Or is it like teenagers and sports fans - don’t say anything negative about something I really, really like?

I'm not upset at all... I have compassion on people. I'm saying RFI is existent in all components not just the HMS. Yes I provided a slew of solutions to help people one of them is up above in the video and other posts. So my experience has no RFI effect on my listening. While he does admit this he also states he remedies that with galvanic isolation.

I personally could not use stock bnc's and I usually don't use stock power supplies as they are usually poor quality. The only exception is this unit because you void the warranty if you use something else; another power supply. However there is the battery option; which I'm musing... but at the moment see no real need as what I have now sounds superior to anything I've listened to before.

 

[Crgreen]

I'm not upset at all... I have compassion on people. I'm saying RFI is existent in all components not just the HMS. Yes I provided a slew of solutions to help people one of them is up above in the video and other posts. So my experience has no RFI effect on my listening. While he does admit this he also states he remedies that with galvanic isolation.

I personally could not use stock bnc's and I usually don't use stock power supplies as they are usually poor quality. The only exception is this unit because you void the warranty if you use something else; another power supply. However there is the battery option; which I'm musing... but at the moment see no real need as what I have now sounds superior to anything I've listened to before.

Compassion for everyone. That’s nice.

 

[kelly200269]

.. but at the moment see no real need as what I have now sounds superior to anything I've listened to before.

I wholeheartedly agree.
I’m just listening to Trifonov’s new recording of Rach’s 3 in 16/44.1 via HMS/TT2, and I can’t believe it sounds this good.

 

[nomad777]

Compassion for everyone. That’s nice.

yes and right now for you having bought and expensive item and not being happy with it... but now you are armed with many solutions so I look forward to seeing your progress as you remedy this real or imagined RFI you are experiencing.

 

[nomad777]

I wholeheartedly agree.
I’m just listening to Trifonov’s new recording of Rach’s 3 in 16/44.1 via HMS/TT2, and I can’t believe it sounds this good.

Nice... !

 

[nomad777]

I was listening to

https://i.imgur.com/xtdUAdK.png'

and

https://i.imgur.com/4sbunJR.png

 

[Chester Rockwell]

I think the reason some of us are getting tired of the RFI debates is due to the repetitive ‘infomercial’ style write-ups for miracle products that solve a completely overblown issue. Then throw in some comments like changing BNC cables post optical conversion via Opto-DX making audible differences making the whole thing a joke. I believe even the creator of the device thinks it's more to do with distance than the cable itself. Or even worse, this optical cable sounds much better than this optical cable, it is just plain ridiculous. These are the reasons I personally am likely to stop visiting Headfi in the near future, and from some of the comments in the DAVE thread, I am not alone.

M Scaler does generate RF noise due to the nature of it's design, that has been stated by the designer, but that does not mean it has not been adequately addressed and is defintely not the same thing as it being overtly audible. Others use the fact that RF noise is generated as rationale for a remedy, but can they demonstrate that the noise can be heard in the first place? And by demonstrate I mean show some kind of evidence other than a set of personal opinions. Every time I read that a product has 'completely transformed' the sound, I switch off as most of us can't even hear the difference between the Chord filters, let alone removing some residual RFI. @Mojo ideas stated previously that they spent a lot of time and money on testing for this. I believe him. @Rob Watts has stated that adding ferrites may smooth things a little in certain situations. Again, I believe him. He has also told anyone worried about it how to easily and cheaply test if they have an issue. If there is no current, the RF noise cannot flow through the DAC. Isolate either with a battery and that loop is broken. The benefit of the battery is not any cleaner power (it may be cleaner, it may not) it's the isolation in this scenario that is useful.

I have been down the rabbit hole myself being utterly convinced there is an issue but I have come out the other side and can see that my senses were playing very very convincing tricks on me. I have also spent a fair deal of money on remedies, so I know what some of them sound like too.

What I would really like to see is a bit more evidence and numbers behind some of the claims made. That kind of debate would be great here. I'm not suggesting the Audio Science Review path. They have the same problem but at the other end of the spectrum: "Even if everyone can hear it, I can't measure it so it doesn't exist". But somewhere in the middle would be needed for me to stay. I am interested in people's subjective opinions on things as much as the measurements, but they just need to have a little more validity and control to make them useful.

I love my Dave and I think the M-Scaler does amazing things. That said IT IS UNLISTENABLE TO THE POINT OF PAIN with me without some RFI reduction. I do not have this issue with Dave alone, in the same system.

And as if to demonstrate my point, we get comments liken this........ @Drewligarchy if the above is the case, I'm very surprised your head hasn't exploded when you turn your car radio on!

 

[kelly200269]

I think the reason some of us are getting tired of the RFI debates is due to the repetitive ‘infomercial’ style write-ups for miracle products that solve a completely overblown issue. Then throw in some comments like changing BNC cables post optical conversion via Opto-DX making audible differences making the whole thing a joke. I believe even the creator of the device thinks it's more to do with distance than the cable itself. Or even worse, this optical cable sounds much better than this optical cable, it is just plain ridiculous. These are the reasons I personally am likely to stop visiting Headfi in the near future, and from some of the comments in the DAVE thread, I am not alone.

M Scaler does generate RF noise due to the nature of it's design, that has been stated by the designer, but that does not mean it has not been adequately addressed and is defintely not the same thing as it being overtly audible. Others use the fact that RF noise is generated as rationale for a remedy, but can they demonstrate that the noise can be heard in the first place? And by demonstrate I mean show some kind of evidence other than a set of personal opinions. Every time I read that a product has 'completely transformed' the sound, I switch off as most of us can't even hear the difference between the Chord filters, let alone removing some residual RFI. @Mojo ideas stated previously that they spent a lot of time and money on testing for this. I believe him. @Rob Watts has stated that adding ferrites may smooth things a little in certain situations. Again, I believe him. He has also told anyone worried about it how to easily and cheaply test if they have an issue. If there is no current, the RF noise cannot flow through the DAC. Isolate either with a battery and that loop is broken. The benefit of the battery is not any cleaner power (it may be cleaner, it may not) it's the isolation in this scenario that is useful.

I have been down the rabbit hole myself being utterly convinced there is an issue but I have come out the other side and can see that my senses were playing very very convincing tricks on me. I have also spent a fair deal of money on remedies, so I know what some of them sound like too.

What I would really like to see is a bit more evidence and numbers behind some of the claims made. That kind of debate would be great here. I'm not suggesting the Audio Science Review path. They have the same problem but at the other end of the spectrum: "Even if everyone can hear it, I can't measure it so it doesn't exist". But somewhere in the middle would be needed for me to stay. I am interested in people's subjective opinions on things as much as the measurements, but they just need to have a little more validity and control to make them useful.




And as if to demonstrate my point, we get comments liken this........ @Drewligarchy if the above is the case, I'm very surprised your head hasn't exploded when you turn your car radio on!

I very sensible post.
Thank you!

 

[Articnoise]

It’s very easy, the people that are content with using the stock cables, PSU and to connect a PC directly to the M-Scaler do that.

People that have experienced that that ferrites, cables and upstream gear can make the sounds better can do that, it's their money.

 

[Ragnar-BY]

even Rob acknowledges that the chip produces RFI. He was the one who started the whole ferrite business!

I think he already regretted it many times

The whole RFI discussion became insane. I`m happy that I`ve already bought my M Scaler, because if I were a newcomer, who looks to buy it, I would have been frightened off with all this talk.

 

[Drewligarchy]

I think the reason some of us are getting tired of the RFI debates is due to the repetitive ‘infomercial’ style write-ups for miracle products that solve a completely overblown issue. Then throw in some comments like changing BNC cables post optical conversion via Opto-DX making audible differences making the whole thing a joke. I believe even the creator of the device thinks it's more to do with distance than the cable itself. Or even worse, this optical cable sounds much better than this optical cable, it is just plain ridiculous. These are the reasons I personally am likely to stop visiting Headfi in the near future, and from some of the comments in the DAVE thread, I am not alone.

M Scaler does generate RF noise due to the nature of it's design, that has been stated by the designer, but that does not mean it has not been adequately addressed and is defintely not the same thing as it being overtly audible. Others use the fact that RF noise is generated as rationale for a remedy, but can they demonstrate that the noise can be heard in the first place? And by demonstrate I mean show some kind of evidence other than a set of personal opinions. Every time I read that a product has 'completely transformed' the sound, I switch off as most of us can't even hear the difference between the Chord filters, let alone removing some residual RFI. @Mojo ideas stated previously that they spent a lot of time and money on testing for this. I believe him. @Rob Watts has stated that adding ferrites may smooth things a little in certain situations. Again, I believe him. He has also told anyone worried about it how to easily and cheaply test if they have an issue. If there is no current, the RF noise cannot flow through the DAC. Isolate either with a battery and that loop is broken. The benefit of the battery is not any cleaner power (it may be cleaner, it may not) it's the isolation in this scenario that is useful.

I have been down the rabbit hole myself being utterly convinced there is an issue but I have come out the other side and can see that my senses were playing very very convincing tricks on me. I have also spent a fair deal of money on remedies, so I know what some of them sound like too.

What I would really like to see is a bit more evidence and numbers behind some of the claims made. That kind of debate would be great here. I'm not suggesting the Audio Science Review path. They have the same problem but at the other end of the spectrum: "Even if everyone can hear it, I can't measure it so it doesn't exist". But somewhere in the middle would be needed for me to stay. I am interested in people's subjective opinions on things as much as the measurements, but they just need to have a little more validity and control to make them useful.

And as if to demonstrate my point, we get comments liken this........ @Drewligarchy if the above is the case, I'm very surprised your head hasn't exploded when you turn your car radio on!

I'm happy to end the back and forth, as I'd rather talk about solutions than argue amongst ourselves - but my concern is essentially the same as yours - except for the Chord products rather than the RFI mitigation devices. If you want to try and prevent people from sharing there thoughts and opinions on a product, then this thread becomes nothing but an infomercial for Chord. Someone may buy a very expensive upscaler without listening first - or in many cases without the ability to demo it in their system - simply because of reading only curated 100% positive reviews from a forum that is supposed to be based on user opinion where people can receive unbiased advice.

Secondly, there is absolutely nothing faulty about my M-Scaler. I have tried multiple, new M-Scalers in my system - it's just how it synergizes with my components.

To be clear the primary concern is about the RFI coming from inside the M Scaler and out through the BNC interface. As has been mentioned on this thread, There are measurements both showing the problem, and the reductions that take place with some of the solutions offered in this thread. I have no commercial interest in any third-party solution mentioned, I am just stating my experience. We can prove that the M-Scaler via measurements outputs a lot of RFI on the BNC outputs, despite any mitigation techniques Chord may have taken. This isn't an indictment of Rob/Chord in any way - things often measure well on the test bunch and act differently out in the field.

I am using a Dave, others may be using other chord dacs that are less transparent or have better isolated BNCs.

I am using highly resolving headphones and amps, described, in my signature that wouldn't be considered warm in the case of the 009 and the Abyss. Some headphones I don't have the extent of the issue described with m scaler in stock form. They still improve from RFI reduction.

The effect I get with the stock cables or inexpensive canare cables is a very, very bright sound - which quite literally provides headaches and earaches. I was not being hyperbolic. Your welcomed to make light of it, but I don't think it's at all funny to have spent $4-5k on an upscaler and have to deal with these effects.

If you haven't tried my exact setup you have no experience of the issues I've had. Frankly, even if you do - you don't have my ears.

TLDR: M Scaler can provide an exceptional improvement to ones system. There are RFI issues some people experience - and there is a spectrum of reactions to these experiences - from no issues whatsoever, to extreme listening fatigue. The RFI coming out of the M Scaler BNCs have been measured. This may cause the intermodulation distortion which is the cause of the issues for some people. Therefore, before you buy the M Scaler - listen to it with your ears in your system before purchasing. It can be a great upgrade, but can cause some issues.

Truthfully - if anything I've described above is inaccurate based on measurements and a variety of peoples experiences tell me where I'm wrong.

 

[Chester Rockwell]

@Drewligarchy I have no desire for it to become too tribal in here either, I was just sharing my views and observations before I likely disappear anyway.

I haven’t seen any specific measurements but if they exist that’s good. It would still require someone more knowledgeable than I, to tell me if those measurements represent anything audible and to what extent. That is the difference I would like to see personally. Rather than people just saying, “it’s been measured so therefore it’s a problem”

Lots of things can be measured that are not audible.

 

[Drewligarchy]

@Drewligarchy I have no desire for it to become too tribal in here either, I was just sharing my views and observations before I likely disappear anyway.

I haven’t seen any specific measurements but if they exist that’s good. It would still require someone more knowledgeable than I, to tell me if those measurements represent anything audible and to what extent. That is the difference I would like to see personally. Rather than people just saying, “it’s been measured so therefore it’s a problem”

Lots of things can be measured that are not audible.

That’s fair on both counts. You are right, I am not an engineer and can’t speak to RFI, if it’s audible, or if my issues have other causes. I’ll modify my statement to be precise as possible without making any assumptions.

In stock form I found the m scaler fatiguing and bright with certain headphones via Dave. This was not the case before m scaler. Transparently I am frustrated by this as in combination with the Dave, that’s a lot of money for a front end without being able to fully enjoy it.

I have tried some of the solutions described on this thread and they’ve provided significant improvement.

 

[rkt31]

" lot of RFI comes out of BNC " lot means how much ? Is there any standard ? Clearly one should refrain from such comments. Is there any proof that optical isolator thing reduced that " lot of RFI " thing ? Did anybody measure the rfi emitted of HMS and affect of moving it away from tt2 ? HMS already has double aluminium casing and RFI reduces in proportion to square of distance. Clearly lot of claims made here are unsubstantiated. There may be some advantages of battery power but those are not due to less RFI, but may be because of some very small amount of noise still remaining in SMPS. I have extensively experimented with ferrite thing. One or two are effective in reducing high frequency noise but too many ferrites affect the current flowing in the digital cables by increasing the impedance. A good shielded BNC cable is all you need to get best out of hms. There may be some improvements with high end cables but those may be only because of better shielding and better copper.