[Foxman50]

What i find strange about all this RFI malarkey is everyone blames HMS because we can fit new BNCs which make it sound better.

i can fit a different USB cable between streamer and HMS which can make the sound duller or brighter, but I don’t say the streamer is at fault.

all these after market products will clearly alter the sound, some will prefer one or other, but who can really say why.

as with everything in this hobby, try it and go with what you like the sound of.

i use two different USB cables in my two setups. If i swap them over i end up with one overly bright system and one dull system, but perfect where they are. What does that tell me, no idea other than I can’t say one cable is better than the other as they work well in their respective places perfectly.

so just by the BNCs or whatever to get the system tailored to the sound you want.

oh and just to add, keep an open mind, all to often the expected outcome is all too often not the actual outcome. Every week i expect to win the lottery but ........

 

[Ragnar-BY]

The effect I get with the stock cables or inexpensive canare cables is a very, very bright sound - which quite literally provides headaches and earaches. I was not being hyperbolic. Your welcomed to make light of it, but I don't think it's at all funny to have spent $4-5k on an upscaler and have to deal with these effects.

Headaches and earaches from an M Scaler? Either you have incredibly sensitive hearing or something is wrong with your gear.

There are SABRE DACs, many of which are brighter than Chord. If high frequencies would be that painful, those DACs would kill their owners from time to time ))

 

[Triode User]

I have extensively experimented with ferrite thing. One or two are effective in reducing high frequency noise but too many ferrites affect the current flowing in the digital cables by increasing the impedance. A good shielded BNC cable is all you need to get best out of hms. There may be some improvements with high end cables but those may be only because of better shielding and better copper.

An interesting post on many levels.

You called for measurements and then go on yourself to make claims based on having "extensively experimented with ferrite thing". Did you yourself use measurements to come to your conclusions that "One or two are effective in reducing high frequency noise but too many ferrites affect the current flowing in the digital cables by increasing the impedance." ? How do you know about the claimed improvement of 1 or 2? How do you know that too many have a bad effect? How many is "too many"? (I have tried up to 40 per cable). Unfortunately your statement is wrong on so many levels of science but it at least made me smile that you have discovered or invented digital current. It might interest you to know that there is hardly any current at all flowing in a digital cable. It is all about high frequency voltages.

Also, unfortunately a good shielded cable may be the last thing you need or want to get the best out of HMS because shielding can keep any RF noise in the cable rather than allowing it to radiate out and therefore reducing the RF getting to the DAC. How do you think better copper might help? What sort of better copper? Are you basing your conclusion on the rate of propagation or on resistance? Would silver be better in your opinion or worse? Are you familiar with 75 ohm cables and how they are used over quite long distances compared to normal 1m length 75 ohm cables used with the dual BNC on HMS?

At least you have made me smile on this wet and damp afternoon.

 

[Drewligarchy]

Headaches and earaches from an M Scaler? Either you have incredibly sensitive hearing or something is wrong with your gear.

There are SABRE DACs, many of which are brighter than Chord. If high frequencies would be that painful, those DACs would kill their owners from time to time ))

I didn’t have any problems with my exact set up with Dave alone. I’ve tried multiple m scalers in my system with the same result.

Trust me, if you have another idea I’m all ears. The reason it’s so difficult is I generally think the M scaler makes a dramatic improvement in many ways - otherwise I would just sell it and be done with it.

I have no agenda. If anything, I’m making it harder for myself to sell it (which I may eventually have to do) by my comments. I am posting because I’d love to find a solution so that M scaler could coexist in my system and I want people to be aware of my experience - because even if I’m an outlier, they can demo first i there system.

When MScaler works it is a remarkable world class upgrade. I just can’t enjoy it.

 

[Crgreen]

I'm happy to end the back and forth, as I'd rather talk about solutions than argue amongst ourselves - but my concern is essentially the same as yours - except for the Chord products rather than the RFI mitigation devices. If you want to try and prevent people from sharing there thoughts and opinions on a product, then this thread becomes nothing but an infomercial for Chord. Someone may buy a very expensive upscaler without listening first - or in many cases without the ability to demo it in their system - simply because of reading only curated 100% positive reviews from a forum that is supposed to be based on user opinion where people can receive unbiased advice.

Secondly, there is absolutely nothing faulty about my M-Scaler. I have tried multiple, new M-Scalers in my system - it's just how it synergizes with my components.

To be clear the primary concern is about the RFI coming from inside the M Scaler and out through the BNC interface. As has been mentioned on this thread, There are measurements both showing the problem, and the reductions that take place with some of the solutions offered in this thread. I have no commercial interest in any third-party solution mentioned, I am just stating my experience. We can prove that the M-Scaler via measurements outputs a lot of RFI on the BNC outputs, despite any mitigation techniques Chord may have taken. This isn't an indictment of Rob/Chord in any way - things often measure well on the test bunch and act differently out in the field.

I am using a Dave, others may be using other chord dacs that are less transparent or have better isolated BNCs.

I am using highly resolving headphones and amps, described, in my signature that wouldn't be considered warm in the case of the 009 and the Abyss. Some headphones I don't have the extent of the issue described with m scaler in stock form. They still improve from RFI reduction.

The effect I get with the stock cables or inexpensive canare cables is a very, very bright sound - which quite literally provides headaches and earaches. I was not being hyperbolic. Your welcomed to make light of it, but I don't think it's at all funny to have spent $4-5k on an upscaler and have to deal with these effects.

If you haven't tried my exact setup you have no experience of the issues I've had. Frankly, even if you do - you don't have my ears.

TLDR: M Scaler can provide an exceptional improvement to ones system. There are RFI issues some people experience - and there is a spectrum of reactions to these experiences - from no issues whatsoever, to extreme listening fatigue. The RFI coming out of the M Scaler BNCs have been measured. This may cause the intermodulation distortion which is the cause of the issues for some people. Therefore, before you buy the M Scaler - listen to it with your ears in your system before purchasing. It can be a great upgrade, but can cause some issues.

Truthfully - if anything I've described above is inaccurate based on measurements and a variety of peoples experiences tell me where I'm wrong.

What you’ve described has been exactly my experience, albeit with the m-scaler in the Blu-2 into the DAVE. I’ve been reliably informed that the same issues exist with the Hugo m-scaler so I’ve not seen that as a remedy notwithstanding the introduction of internal ferrites.

I’ve tried myriad solutions, and ferrites, Wave cables (and carbon cables) do mitigate the issue but do not do remedy it altogether. I suspect that the Opto-DX would provide the best solution and have been watching this forum to see the user reports, which seem to have been favourable. Unfortunately, I cannot currently afford that unit and would ideally like to try it first but living in the UK this is not practical. Also, as you mention, having spent a large sum on the technology I’m rather miffed that I’d have to spend significantly more to overcome what I percieve as a very real problem.

I agree that the m-scaler technology does some things incredibly well and produces very real benefits such as increased depth, detail and soundstaging . Unfortunately, for me it giveth with one hand and taketh away with the other. It introduces high frequency hash into the DAVE in a clearly verifiable way. What Rob describes as slight I regard as significant such that it leads to listening fatigue. This is why he called me an “outlier” so I suppose I’m gratified that there are at least some others out there and it’s not my imagination. It my be down to a matter of personal taste and, as I’ve said, I really do wish I didn’t hear things that way. I just wanted to plug something into the DAVE that enhanced my listening pleasure and forget about it, which is what I consider Hi-Fi to be about.

I find it regrettable that some consider such views should be excluded simply because they don’t hear things that way.

 

[STR-1]

And, last but not least, batteries have very basic voltage regulators in it. So it would not be a complete substitute to good PSU.

Battery packs like the Pilot Pro 2 are also inherently weak with transient current delivery, which will be noticeable more with some types of device than with others. Still, the benefits of isolation will often outweigh any transient current shortcomings.

 

[xxx1313]

I`m using this regulator for my opticalRendu. My Keces P8 LPSU have a 9V output. DXP-1A5S is set to 7V. With regulator my Rendu runs less warm and SQ is also better. Not big improvement, but still better.

You can buy a regulator with 15V output and use PP2 on 16V setting, should be good. M Scaler consumes 0,9A in standby and 1,1A when working.

Many thanks for your answer, this is really valuable Information. I will order a piece set to 15V output and use PP2 on 16V setting, as you also recommend.

 

[Ragnar-BY]

I can not comment on DAVE, which I don’t have. With TT2 (which is totally comfortable and not fatiguing on it’ own) M Scaler makes sound more comfortable, even if used with stock cables, stock PSUs.

I have very bright headphones with sharp treble. M scaled TT2 gives the best and the most comfortable highs that I’ve heard from my TH-900 so far. And I’m from that camp, which hear difference between filters.

 

[dmance]

Battery packs like the Pilot Pro 2 are also inherently weak with transient current delivery, which will be noticeable more with some types of device than with others. Still, the benefits of isolation will often outweigh any transient current shortcomings.

My considered opinion is that for digital devices, they care only for functional power. So any kind of power does not make them 'better' or 'worse' as a bit mover. If power on a digital device has any effect on SQ it's due to the secondary or incidental aspect as a generator of RF noise (sorry to the sensitive posters).

For analog components, I think the superb design of the TT2 is a harbinger of things to come ...where applied DC power just charges the supercap ..which has all the instantaneous current needed.

 

[Articnoise]

An interesting post on many levels.

You called for measurements and then go on yourself to make claims based on having "extensively experimented with ferrite thing". Did you yourself use measurements to come to your conclusions that "One or two are effective in reducing high frequency noise but too many ferrites affect the current flowing in the digital cables by increasing the impedance." ? How do you know about the claimed improvement of 1 or 2? How do you know that too many have a bad effect? How many is "too many"? (I have tried up to 40 per cable). Unfortunately your statement is wrong on so many levels of science but it at least made me smile that you have discovered or invented digital current. It might interest you to know that there is hardly any current at all flowing in a digital cable. It is all about high frequency voltages.

Also, unfortunately a good shielded cable may be the last thing you need or want to get the best out of HMS because shielding can keep any RF noise in the cable rather than allowing it to radiate out and therefore reducing the RF getting to the DAC. How do you think better copper might help? What sort of better copper? Are you basing your conclusion on the rate of propagation or on resistance? Would silver be better in your opinion or worse? Are you familiar with 75 ohm cables and how they are used over quite long distances compared to normal 1m length 75 ohm cables used with the dual BNC on HMS?

At least you have made me smile on this wet and damp afternoon.

I don’t find it unreasonable, neither in theory nor in practice, to conclude that "too many" ferrites can and should have a negative effect on the sound. My understanding is that too many ferrites can change the impedance of cable so it won’t be 75 Ohms anymore, which is known to be important for good clock signal transmission. I have tried different amount and types of ferrites and more than a few absolutely changed the sound and made it dark, dull and slow IMO.

 

[Triode User]

I don’t find it unreasonable, neither in theory nor in practice, to conclude that "too many" ferrites can and should have a negative effect on the sound. My understanding is that too many ferrites can change the impedance of cable so it won’t be 75 Ohms anymore, which is known to be important for good clock signal transmission. I have tried different amount and types of ferrites and more than a few absolutely changed the sound and made it dark, dull and slow IMO.

It might be useful if I return to the simple physics of what is happening and what is being heard. Through all this the digital signal is not being altered. Rob Watts has explained MANY times that the goal is always to seek out the least bright, darkest and least fatiguing sound because that is an indicator of the least amount of RF noise in the system and only then are you hearing the unadulterated music contained in the digital signal. What will have happened is that your ear and brain has become accustomed to an unnaturally bright sound containing RF noise artifacts. When these are taken away it initially seems that the sound is 'slow' or 'dull'. However if you persevere you will gradually retune and be able to hear the greater real detail which is now audible because it is not being masked by the RF artifacts.

When I was first playing with ferrites I was listening to one live track from Fink that has a very percussive rim tap and all sense of life and realism seemed to have been sucked out of that rim tap. So I took some ferrites off and back came the life and apparent realism. Gradually though I realised that the track was really fatiguing so I put all the 20 ferrites back on each cable. After maybe a week my brain had recalibrated, the rim tap regained its sharp realistic character but also I was hearing real details in the music that I had not heard before because they had been masked.

Unfortunately what you are doing by shying away from the darker sound is that you are using RF noise and distortion artifacts to colour your music. I am also afraid what you are really listening to and hearing is distortion.

Basically you should keep adding ferrites back onto your cable until the point where more ferrites stop making an audible effect. You then have the right number of ferrites on your cables.

Of course you may not believe me and in which case why not believe Rob Watts. He has certainly said the same as me on here many times on this subject .

 

[kelly200269]

It might be useful if I return to the simple physics of what is happening and what is being heard. Through all this the digital signal is not being altered. Rob Watts has explained MANY times that the goal is always to seek out the least bright, darkest and least fatiguing sound because that is an indicator of the least amount of RF noise in the system and only then are you hearing the unadulterated music contained in the digital signal. What will have happened is that your ear and brain has become accustomed to an unnaturally bright sound containing RF noise artifacts. When these are taken away it initially seems that the sound is 'slow' or 'dull'. However if you persevere you will gradually retune and be able to hear the greater real detail which is now audible because it is not being masked by the RF artifacts.

When I was first playing with ferrites I was listening to one live track from Fink that has a very percussive rim tap and all sense of life and realism seemed to have been sucked out of that rim tap. So I took some ferrites off and back came the life and apparent realism. Gradually though I realised that the track was really fatiguing so I put all the 20 ferrites back on each cable. After maybe a week my brain had recalibrated, the rim tap regained its sharp realistic character but also I was hearing real details in the music that I had not heard before because they had been masked.

Unfortunately what you are doing by shying away from the darker sound is that you are using RF noise and distortion artifacts to colour your music. I am also afraid what you are really listening to and hearing is distortion.

Basically you should keep adding ferrites back onto your cable until the point where more ferrites stop making an audible effect. You then have the right number of ferrites on your cables.

Of course you may not believe me and in which case why not believe Rob Watts. He has certainly said the same as me on here many times on this subject .

But you make and sell cables with ferrites on, right? That’s what your company does, isn’t it?
Therefore, you naturally have a vested, commercial interest in pushing your ‘opinion’. An opinion, I might add, that seems to be without any concrete evidence to support it.
Where is your published evidence to prove that what you make, and sell has any impact on RFI/EMI transmission between HMS and TT2/DAVE etc? I’ve had a look at your website, and there isn’t anything there.

 

[Crgreen]

But you make and sell cables with ferrites on, right? That’s what your company does, isn’t it?
Therefore, you naturally have a vested, commercial interest in pushing your ‘opinion’. An opinion, I might add, that seems to be without any concrete evidence to support it.
Where is your published evidence to prove that what you make, and sell has any impact on RFI/EMI transmission between HMS and TT2/DAVE etc? I’ve had a look at your website, and there isn’t anything there.

I think it’s commonly accepted that there is an issue and that ferrites go some way to remedying matters. The differences are clearly audible.

 

[Triode User]

But you make and sell cables with ferrites on, right? That’s what your company does, isn’t it?
Therefore, you naturally have a vested, commercial interest in pushing your ‘opinion’. An opinion, I might add, that seems to be without any concrete evidence to support it.
Where is your published evidence to prove that what you make, and sell has any impact on RFI/EMI transmission between HMS and TT2/DAVE etc? I’ve had a look at your website, and there isn’t anything there.

I was trying to give helpful advice to someone to do a diy solution. I was also hoping to give a small amount of guidance to people on here as to how to judge if they are on the right track because there has been so much rubbish and misinformation spouted on here recently.

I suggest you just put me in ‘ignore’ if you want to avoid what I say.

 

[nomad777]

I didn’t have any problems with my exact set up with Dave alone. I’ve tried multiple m scalers in my system with the same result.

Trust me, if you have another idea I’m all ears. The reason it’s so difficult is I generally think the M scaler makes a dramatic improvement in many ways - otherwise I would just sell it and be done with it.

I have no agenda. If anything, I’m making it harder for myself to sell it (which I may eventually have to do) by my comments. I am posting because I’d love to find a solution so that M scaler could coexist in my system and I want people to be aware of my experience - because even if I’m an outlier, they can demo first i there system.

When MScaler works it is a remarkable world class upgrade. I just can’t enjoy it.

I've posted a slew of solutions. Enjoy.