[Glossator]

@Glossator I am not exactly sure what you mean. Is it when you ran the HSM and both sides of the Opto DX from one PSU, you got noise? Noise in the DAVE that is.

Is it possible to run the Opto DX from a PSU, and use the normal HMS PSU for optimal results? That's what you said you did first, and said the result was very impressive. Then adding the HMS to the PSU and it went wrong. Why not go back to the HMS on its own PSU, rather than battery?

Was it that adding battery to HMS made it better than HMS on normal power lead, and OPTO on LPS?

This is an edited and expanded version of the original post

Sorry for not being clear. Running the Opto DX via a PSU and using the normal HMS PSU was exactly what I tried first - and it gave a feel for the potential transparency the Opto DX opens up. So, to my ears (and Ray's comments suggest likewise for his), the answer to your question is unfortunately 'no' - running the Opto DX and HMS via its ordinary PSU is far from optimal. I really did end up with a battery very reluctantly.

The reason for not settling for the route you suggest (i.e using the stock HMS PSU), and fiddling with a battery, was that something (and an important something, not something subtle) that the non-stock PSU (I am sorry if this grates. I have seen comments made/attributed to Rob Watts and I do not mean the slightest disrespect) had brought was clearly lost. I was just trying to see if rather than two steps forward, one step back, I could manage two steps forward and leave it at that. The intention (believe it or not!) is for things to be as simple as possible. [I should add that I have not gone in for any digital tweaks upstream from the HMS].

[Ironically, the original motivation for the custom PSU was to try to do everything well, simply and in the long term to cut out unnecessary costs. Unfortunately, I was wrong and seem likely to end up with a far from cheap PSU for just the Opto DX receiver. Trying to save others making the same mistake was a large part of the reason for yesterday's post]

I can see from recent posts the frustration at tweaking for it own sake, questions about objectivity, etc etc - all of which are very valid. All I would say in response it that I it seems to be that Rob Watt's kit, with a bit of additional RF management, is capable of something I never expected would be possible.

It is not just that the music sounds great (which it does, as others have quite rightly said 'out of the box'), or that the illusion is such that I feel 'in' the room with the original performers (that is to over-state it), but that (if I can put it like this) that the musicians are 'in' the room with me (I appreciate the oddness of writing about whether one is 'in' another room or someone is 'in' my room). It is visceral and at times slightly unnerving. Organ notes, violin and cello strings can be felt rather than just heard [at least that is how it seems to me - and it is not about listening at high volume]; I did not think that was meant to be possible with headphones. It depends on the recording - sometimes it is like looking at very high resolution photograph (but looking into a picture through a very clear window), sometimes I have to remind myself that there is indeed not actually someone playing in the room.

What is possible seems to be moving beyond whether something sounds bright/warm, detailed, etc, etc to a question of musical transparency. To hear Dame Janet Baker singing Purcell (as Dido) in the 1960s, the Bush Quartet play Beethoven in the 1930s, or indeed the zing of Buena Vista Social Club, with such utter immediacy strikes me as very special. The headphones do not quite disappear. But I do get the impression a threshold of sorts is being crossed. And, that is something to celebrate and be thankful for.

 

[Glossator]

I think it’s not always about the destination but the journey. For me, trying to recreate a reference sound, tweaking certain things, testing my listening skills, learning along the way is really productive.

I have already spent too much to further indulge in big ticket items right now, but I can stil tweak with low cost changes, such as batteries or software. Last night I switched Fidelizer to ‘rich Details’ mode, and it helped me hear that big guitar noise I was looking for.

I also think, people consider computers/servers/end points as black boxes that are very similar, but I think it’s better to consider them like any other mechanical device, each component can interplay to effect its operation, in this case the production of the audio stream.

I have an idea, for those like me, who can afford occasional spending, a loaner program !!

I’d love a loaner program for wave cables and opto boxes. Those in the pool could deposit money to protect the supplier, and if we wanted to buy the item, then maybe also an excellent discount could be provided as the supplier has derisked the potential cost of the open box/ return.

I particularly see the need for the loaner program for transatlantic products, as the vat etc is a problem, but maybe it wouldn’t be due, if the item was a loan anyway.

 

[Glossator]

[Deleted]

 

[Glossator]

Sorry: I do not quite seem to have the hang of this yet: intended as a reply to @ZappaMan.

Agreed! Trying to persuade your local post office to release something imported from Canada (or elsewhere) without paying VAT on the basis that a parcel is on loan, or indeed seeking to reclaim the VAT from HMRC (or any tax authority in another jurisdiction) if you send a package back, feels like a very uphill task.

 

[Uncle Monty]

Even sending gear to the US for repair is a pain with the hassle you get from Customs & Excise.

 

[ajaipuriyar]

I have been running the Opto DX, powered by Uptone JS2 (dirty side) and PilotPro (clean side) and connected with Forza Audio BNC cables.

Opto DX sits between the HMS and Dave.

There is significant drop in the noise floor and new bass lines have emerged in songs which I have heard hundreds of times. Overall music is more enjoyable and engaging.

HMS connected to JS2 @12v sounds the best to me.
HMS with stock PS sounds a bit muddy relatively.
HMS with PilotPro 2 @ 16V was a bit more energetic for my taste.

YMMV.

Better PS on HMS and Opto DX is definitely a step up for my subjective ears. I think separating all 3 power sources might have greater benefit.
Hence I have ordered another PilotPro to see how the sound changes with both TX and RX on battery and HMS on JS2. Lets see how the experiment goes.

Many a times during the last 12 yrs of this hobby, while listening to music, I have thought ‘it can’t get better than this’ but have been pleasantly surprised again and again.

Removing/reducing effects of RF from the chain has been one such instance.

Rgds.
Amit

 

[AlanYWM]

For me, the biggest handicap of the MScaler is the BNC cables. Without the Opto DX box or something similar, a pair of good BNC cables is required to bring out the best of the MScaler. For those who are happy with the BNC cables that came with the MScaler, good for you. But it is not for me.

 

[rkt31]

I have been running the Opto DX, powered by Uptone JS2 (dirty side) and PilotPro (clean side) and connected with Forza Audio BNC cables.

Opto DX sits between the HMS and Dave.

There is significant drop in the noise floor and new bass lines have emerged in songs which I have heard hundreds of times. Overall music is more enjoyable and engaging.

HMS connected to JS2 @12v sounds the best to me.
HMS with stock PS sounds a bit muddy relatively.
HMS with PilotPro 2 @ 16V was a bit more energetic for my taste.

YMMV.

Better PS on HMS and Opto DX is definitely a step up for my subjective ears. I think separating all 3 power sources might have greater benefit.
Hence I have ordered another PilotPro to see how the sound changes with both TX and RX on battery and HMS on JS2. Lets see how the experiment goes.

Many a times during the last 12 yrs of this hobby, while listening to music, I have thought ‘it can’t get better than this’ but have been pleasantly surprised again and again.

Removing effects of RF from the chain has been once such instance.

Rgds.
Amit

Try ifi dc purifier with stock supply, it may even better linear supply and very close to battery. Pilot2 also uses some kind of circuitry inside inside ? Did you try speakers ?

 

[ajaipuriyar]

Try ifi dc purifier with stock supply, it may even better linear supply and very close to battery. Pilot2 also uses some kind of circuitry inside inside ? Did you try speakers ?

Sure. Looks like a low cost/risk tweak.

I haven’t tried speakers as I am 100% into Headphones with Abyss Phi TC and Susvara being my current headphones.

 

[ray-dude]

Try ifi dc purifier with stock supply, it may even better linear supply and very close to battery. Pilot2 also uses some kind of circuitry inside inside ? Did you try speakers ?

The PP2 has an internal DC-DC transformer, so it isn't the best power supply (from a voltage regulation perspective). It has fantastic electrical isolation (it's a battery and modest transient current capacity (it's a battery )

In my experiments, different pieces of kit seem to be impacted more or less by different aspects of power:

By narrowing down sound quality differences between these different types of power sources, it shines a light on what aspects of power quality seem to have the largest impact. These key differences are:

• The AA battery packs have perfect electrical isolation and no switching noise, but terrible voltage regulation (pro tip: you can adjust voltage output with AA battery packs by adding and removing AA batteries, and using a paper clip to jumper to the output terminal)

• The PowerAdd Pilots have good electrical isolation minimal switching noise (it is fully disconnected from main, but has internal electronics), and good but not great voltage regulation

• The Uptone LPS 1.2 has great isolation (it has a unique internal battery switching mechanism so it is always disconnected from mains), and fantastic voltage regulation if you operate away from its max current limits

Swapping these supplies into different parts of my chain, it is very easy to hear differences and learn what aspect of power makes the most difference for any particular component.

HMS benefits from mains isolation (PP2) but even more from better voltage regulation and transient capacity. I love the PP2's because they are a quick cheap way to experiment to see what works and doesn't work in your chain and your home.

 

[JaZZ]

HMS benefits from mains isolation (PP2) but even more from better voltage regulation and transient capacity.

Just wondering: What transients are there to be expected from the M Scaler? I imagine the dual-data mode as a constant continuous data stream without any peaks and dips.

 

[ray-dude]

Just wondering: What transients are there to be expected from the M Scaler? I imagine the dual-data mode as a constant continuous data stream without any peaks and dips.

I don't have a clear way to separate these factors right now (for HMS) since I only have one high current supply that has both great regulation and transient response (Paul Hynes SR4). My hypothesis would be the same as yours, but I don't have a way to test it (yet).

 

[Amberlamps]

For me adding the M Scaler to the DAVE has been one of the most impactful upgrades ever of my system, especially in terms of what we call 'analogue' sound (which we usually identify with 'natural' sound)

With the M Scaler in place you don't really need further products or accessories, IMO.

This said, like with all other audio gear, there are marginal sound quality gains to be enjoyed if you are willing to invest in better cables, power supplies and - specific to digital sources and especially DAC (not only Chord ones) - galvanic and RF pollution treatment.

These marginal, yet audible, improvements become more apparent on a highly resolving system, especially if you listen in critical mode. While being deeply into diminishing returns territory, to some very sensitive / well trained ears or due to psychological or psychoacoustics effects, marginal gains on top of great systems are perceived in a much amplified way, which brings to a vicious circle of self-justification.

It is all good as long as we enjoy the process - as we realize that we are both gear lovers and music lovers - and I myself have decided to go through that rabbit hole (OPTO-DX, high-end BNC and DC cables, multiple batteries …, not to mention several other audio tweaks), which implies spending a relevant amount of time and money, complicate my system, etc., and, yes, I am happy I did it as I am getting a better listening experience as a result (at least I have convinced myself so) and had lots of fun in the meantime.

This is exactly what I mean, Rob designed his products to sound good as is, why the need for other bits and pieces. Aslong as you have good cables, that should in theory be all one needs.

Dave or TT2 or any other chord dac + mscaler = golden, as the above quoted post shows.

I would love to buy everything that folk here are posting about, but I can't afford it and even if I could afford it, the chances of me noticing the difference is marginal at best.

I can't tell the difference between roon streaming qobuz or my cca streaming qobuz, and ones usb and the other is optical.

I'm sure Opto DX does what it says it can do, and I know wave cables does what they say they can do, but my post earlier was more aimed at not just those two, but everything else like reclockers, power conditioners, those ifi usb thingys etc etc etc. Oh and audiophile ethernet pcie cards, here's looking at you jcat.

It would be cool if there was some sort of database with blind testing results that potential buyers could look up and see how well or bad a device performed when being blind tested.

 

[Amberlamps]

Even sending gear to the US for repair is a pain with the hassle you get from Customs & Excise.

you think thats bad, I just bought new earpads for my aeon flow closed headphones, $59 from mr speaker store, 73$ total to ship and that was using the cheapest shipping method and when they arrive in the UK I will be hit with 20% for vat and something as a customs fee and a royal mail handling fee of £8.

Probably cost me over £100 just to replace two earpads that are total crap, the new ones on the headphones have lasted 2 months from new and they are all buckled and out of shape.

I just wish third party earpad makers would make a decent pair for the aeons.

 

[Amberlamps]

I think it’s not always about the destination but the journey. For me, trying to recreate a reference sound, tweaking certain things, testing my listening skills, learning along the way is really productive.

I have already spent too much to further indulge in big ticket items right now, but I can stil tweak with low cost changes, such as batteries or software. Last night I switched Fidelizer to ‘rich Details’ mode, and it helped me hear that big guitar noise I was looking for.

I also think, people consider computers/servers/end points as black boxes that are very similar, but I think it’s better to consider them like any other mechanical device, each component can interplay to effect its operation, in this case the production of the audio stream.

I have an idea, for those like me, who can afford occasional spending, a loaner program !!

I’d love a loaner program for wave cables and opto boxes. Those in the pool could deposit money to protect the supplier, and if we wanted to buy the item, then maybe also an excellent discount could be provided as the supplier has derisked the potential cost of the open box/ return.

I particularly see the need for the loaner program for transatlantic products, as the vat etc is a problem, but maybe it wouldn’t be due, if the item was a loan anyway.

Once brexit happens and trump hooks us up with a US trade deal, maybe buying from the states might be as easy as buying from europe today ?

But I'm not sure america has anything worth buying, as they get china to make everything and US made products carry a premium price, like diapers and afro combs.