[adyc]

Yes, power cables do make a difference. But not necessarily with the intended outcome. In my setup, the stock cable was preferrable over two expensive (and good) mains cables which I tried. Now another surprise. Connecting the SMPS of HMS to a rather cheap and simple Oehlbach Powerstocket 907 (the "digital"=filtered sockets) leads to a better result than connecting it to a PS Audio P5 or directly to the wall socket. It seems that the P5 does emit a significant amount of RF/EMI and that the HMS responds well to simple mains filtering.

I think the problem is not P5. It is HMS or its SMPS are RF generators. Your observations means that Oehlbach is doing a good job filtering RF. P5 does not have any filtering and it allows RF from HMS polluting the rest of your audio.

 

[dmance]

@adyc is right. I have a mains powered PSAudio DS DAC and the head designer claimed I needed two isolation transformers in series to stop FPGA generated noise getting back to my wall outlet and affecting my other components.

RF noise is insanely insidious. Invisible and hard to control. Perhaps impossible unless your source is optical and your DAC can run on batteries. Oh, wait, that's how I run my Hugo2 and it's crazy good.

 

[acordfan]

im mostly on headphones, i have a basic set of b&w 602 speakers, i detect a good bit more instrument placement with the mscaler from the speakers then without. my speaker placement is rubbish and i can only really listen to speakers on a saturday for a few hours - maybe.

I have to say, the mscaler magic can be tricky, i know last week i was feeling i couldn't really hear it, today its back again. with my hd800s headphones, i went through different phases, thinking they were great, then i wasn't that bother with them, to finally settled on they're really good, and stopped trying to listen to them if you see what i mean, and just listen to the music ?! I think mscaler can be the same, its awesome at the start, but then maybe as you get used to it, you're not really sure if its still doing what it was doing.

Then if you put the pass through mode on, it still sounds the same! I think once your brain gets used to something extra, it actually sees it, even if its not mscaler, its now you've learned you can hear those extra details. weird. so in a way, for anyone thinking, i must have one, maybe you dont... maybe you'll just get used to it anyway and you wont really notice what its doing.

im thinking a good source could be required to really help give the mscaler what it needs, i'm not sure my optical output is doing it.

You're not alone on this. From my experience with the Mojo, I listened to it exclusively for a month before being able to reliably determine what I was hearing. That's the time I went on to purchase a Hugo 2 without much adjustment. Maybe M scaler needs a similar approach to listening, and quality album that takes advantage of what it offers (live, minimally processed music).

 

[Triode User]

I think the cable vendor in question has now changed his mind, putting it down to cooking nerves - you know what it’s like.

Rob is always honest, and it’s clear he doesn’t believe there’s an issue, residual or otherwise. Even though Nick refers to Rob as “the Master” it’s uncertain if he agrees with him about the HMS/Dave.

As the VIQ, (vendor in question, now back from frying 50 + eggs for our village Big Breakfast), perhaps I can clarify.

I think most of us with a Blu Mk2 will recognise that there is an improvement to be had by addressing the matter of RF noise. Indeed Rob himself has discussed many times how when one is looking to optimise a system containing the Blu Mk2 then one should focus on looking for the darkest and least bright sound because that signifies the least amount of RF noise. I think RW was the first person to suggest that clip on ferrites on the dual BNC cables could enhance the Blu Mk2 and he even went as far as suggesting which ferrites might be tried. Anyone who has heard a properly treated Blu Mk2 will attest to the level of optimisation which can be achieved and with that comes an enhanced sound which to my ears is less fatiguing, less harsh, less bright and which has more true detail available because it is no longer masked by RF artifacts. I do not think any of that is really in doubt or contested.

With the arrival of the MScaler also came the news that it has internal ferrites and internal RF isolation. It is stated that because of those features buyers will not be required to go down the clip on ferrite route because the HMS does not need external ferrites. Indeed, RW reported that with an early prototype he had found that clip on ferrites actually made the sound worse. (He admitted that he found that perplexing as it went against normal thinking.)

I had one of the first production HMS and certainly the first which was reported on here. I was on record then as confirming that HMS does not need external ferrites. That is something which I am still happy to categorically state. The HMS does not need extra ferrites.

And yet, as RW said earlier today, "That doesn't mean that optimising things can't make it a tad smoother though...".

So, especially with the statement that RW had tried extra clip on ferrites and they had made HMS worse, it was inevitable that I would try my WAVE cables just to see what happened. I mean, why wouldn't I?

Also, remember that I have been experimenting for many months with various options for Blu Mk2 and my ear is now quite finely attuned to how the Blu Mk2 sounds with what I consider to be optimised treatment. Against that background of my listening to the Blu Mk2 it is my opinion that an untreated HMS does not quite equal a fully optimised Blu Mk2.

The surprise was that adding a pair of my 20 ferrite cables to HMS did not make it worse. Instead it made it that 'tad smoother' and brought it to the point where to my hearing the HMS and the Blu Mk2 were indistinguishable (both with the 20 ferrite cables).

Why do the extra ferrites not make HMS worse? I do not know. Possibly because they are solid core and not split core. Possibly because they are a tight fit on the cable. Or maybe something else.

So, where does this get us? I absolutely do not think RW and I are on different pages here. Fundamentally I am not disagreeing with him regarding the statement that HMS does not need extra ferrites. Equally I would hope that he would agree that it would be a rare thing if it was not possible for there to be a way of wringing a tad more performance out of something even if that something was already very highly developed. Indeed he has said as much in his airport waiting area post, ie "That doesn't mean that optimising things can't make it a tad smoother though...".

There is now a sufficient number of people who have heard the 'tad smoother sound' of an HMS with fine tuning for me to feel confident that it is not just me hearing it. Indeed I think I would go as far as to say that, just like the Blu Mk2, I do not think that fine tuning is in doubt with the HMS. It is just a matter of how far one is prepared to go to chase the desired sound and at what point it is near enough to stop and instead just sit back and just listen to music. Part of that will depend on the rest of the system, part of it will depend on the type of music we play, part of it will depend on how sensitive our ears are to RF artifacts and of course on the depth of our wallets.

 

[AndrewOld]

As the VIQ, (vendor in question, now back from frying 50 + eggs for our village Big Breakfast), perhaps I can clarify.

I think most of us with a Blu Mk2 will recognise that there is an improvement to be had by addressing the matter of RF noise. Indeed Rob himself has discussed many times how when one is looking to optimise a system containing the Blu Mk2 then one should focus on looking for the darkest and least bright sound because that signifies the least amount of RF noise. I think RW was the first person to suggest that clip on ferrites on the dual BNC cables could enhance the Blu Mk2 and he even went as far as suggesting which ferrites might be tried. Anyone who has heard a properly treated Blu Mk2 will attest to the level of optimisation which can be achieved and with that comes an enhanced sound which to my ears is less fatiguing, less harsh, less bright and which has more true detail available because it is no longer masked by RF artifacts. I do not think any of that is really in doubt or contested.

With the arrival of the MScaler also came the news that it has internal ferrites and internal RF isolation. It is stated that because of those features buyers will not be required to go down the clip on ferrite route because the HMS does not need external ferrites. Indeed, RW reported that with an early prototype he had found that clip on ferrites actually made the sound worse. (He admitted that he found that perplexing as it went against normal thinking.)

I had one of the first production HMS and certainly the first which was reported on here. I was on record then as confirming that HMS does not need external ferrites. That is something which I am still happy to categorically state. The HMS does not need extra ferrites.

And yet, as RW said earlier today, "That doesn't mean that optimising things can't make it a tad smoother though...".

So, especially with the statement that RW had tried extra clip on ferrites and they had made HMS worse, it was inevitable that I would try my WAVE cables just to see what happened. I mean, why wouldn't I?

Also, remember that I have been experimenting for many months with various options for Blu Mk2 and my ear is now quite finely attuned to how the Blu Mk2 sounds with what I consider to be optimised treatment. Against that background of my listening to the Blu Mk2 it is my opinion that an untreated HMS does not quite equal a fully optimised Blu Mk2.

The surprise was that adding a pair of my 20 ferrite cables to HMS did not make it worse. Instead it made it that 'tad smoother' and brought it to the point where to my hearing the HMS and the Blu Mk2 were indistinguishable (both with the 20 ferrite cables).

Why do the extra ferrites not make HMS worse? I do not know. Possibly because they are solid core and not split core. Possibly because they are a tight fit on the cable. Or maybe something else.

So, where does this get us? I absolutely do not think RW and I are on different pages here. Fundamentally I am not disagreeing with him regarding the statement that HMS does not need extra ferrites. Equally I would hope that he would agree that it would be a rare thing if it was not possible for there to be a way of wringing a tad more performance out of something even if that something was already very highly developed. Indeed he has said as much in his airport waiting area post, ie "That doesn't mean that optimising things can't make it a tad smoother though...".

There is now a sufficient number of people who have heard the 'tad smoother sound' of an HMS with fine tuning for me to feel confident that it is not just me hearing it. Indeed I think I would go as far as to say that, just like the Blu Mk2, I do not think that fine tuning is in doubt with the HMS. It is just a matter of how far one is prepared to go to chase the desired sound and at what point it is near enough to stop and instead just sit back and just listen to music. Part of that will depend on the rest of the system, part of it will depend on the type of music we play, part of it will depend on how sensitive our ears are to RF artifacts and of course on the depth of our wallets.

You are totally changing your tune. A few posts ago you were saying that the HMS/DAVE suffered from “digital harshness and glare” that by implication could be fixed by your stupefyingly expensive wires. Now you have changed your position, though not the price of your wires, and the most you claim is that your wires make things “a tad smoother”.

In addition your claims that your wires reduce RF betweem the HMS and DAVE are illegal in the U.K. The ASA code requires that you have documentary evidence of any such claim, and you have none. Not a single measurement. Here is the relevant section of the ASA code:

“If a claim is capable of objective substantiation, the marketer will be required to hold adequate supporting evidence. Marketers should be mindful of the fact that if the ASA considers a claim to be objective and capable of substantiation, they are likely to rule the claim misleading in the absence of adequate substantiation, even if the marketer’s intention was to make a subjective claim”.

So, once again, where is the objective, adequate substantiation that your wires change the performance of a DAVE?

 

[Triode User]

Andrew, I have previously offered to let you borrow a set of cables in a spirit of goodwill to see if it would assuage your antagonism. Although I did not receive a reply I am guessing your answer was no thank you.

Also, thank you for your kind attention to my welfare with regard the the ASA. I have taken your advice and have availed myself of their free online advice service. Kind regards.

 

[SCBob]

Andrew, I have previously offered to let you borrow a set of cables in a spirit of goodwill to see if it would assuage your antagonism. Although I did not receive a reply I am guessing your answer was no thank you.

Also, thank you for your kind attention to my welfare with regard the the ASA. I have taken your advice and have availed myself of their free online advice service. Kind regards.

I am still waiting for HMS delivery so I have no first hand knowledge of the whole RF discussion but it seems to me that what is important is whether or not a cable upgrade changes the perceived sound for a particular individual. With trial periods available for these cables just try one or more of them, make your decision then sit back and just enjoy the music.

 

[AndrewOld]

Andrew, I have previously offered to let you borrow a set of cables in a spirit of goodwill to see if it would assuage your antagonism. Although I did not receive a reply I am guessing your answer was no thank you.

Also, thank you for your kind attention to my welfare with regard the the ASA. I have taken your advice and have availed myself of their free online advice service. Kind regards.

I have every right to challenge the effectiveness of your cables You have, in the space of an hour or two, totally changed the claims you make for their effects.

I have every right to challenge to value for money aspects of your cables. It is a matter of fact that decent BNC connectors cost a couple or three pounds each, that really good cable costs a couple of pounds a meter, and that ferrites cost a few pence. It takes 5 or 10 minutes to terminate such a cable, even if you are out of practice. Allowing a fair margin, there’s no way you can get to £495 - £895 a pair - that’s the same kind of money as a Mojo.

I have every right to question whether, as a Trade user, you should be posting comments critical of Chord Electronics in this thread.

I am not interested in a trial, free or otherwise, until you a) provide proof of your claims that they reduce the RF coming out of an M Scaler, and b) reduce the price by at least three-quarters.

I will continue to challenge the claims you make, and continue to argue that as a Trade Member you should not be making negative comments about another Trade members products in their thread.

 

[dawktah2]

This is the only time I am going to ask about ferrites. Are we talking generic LAN cable ferrite of some Hi-Fi equivalent?

 

[ZappaMan]

I wonder whether the claim that the music should sound darker is a bit of a broad statement. Although I know people who know their audio a lot better than me are perhaps just using this as a shorthand phrase.
Is it possible to make the sound dark, but not in a good way?
Say if it is darker but the dynamic range or something or sound scape is less, then is darker still better?

 

[Crgreen]

I have every right to challenge the effectiveness of your cables You have, in the space of an hour or two, totally changed the claims you make for their effects.

I have every right to challenge to value for money aspects of your cables. It is a matter of fact that decent BNC connectors cost a couple or three pounds each, that really good cable costs a couple of pounds a meter, and that ferrites cost a few pence. It takes 5 or 10 minutes to terminate such a cable, even if you are out of practice. Allowing a fair margin, there’s no way you can get to £495 - £895 a pair - that’s the same kind of money as a Mojo.

I have every right to question whether, as a Trade user, you should be posting comments critical of Chord Electronics in this thread.

I am not interested in a trial, free or otherwise, until you a) provide proof of your claims that they reduce the RF coming out of an M Scaler, and b) reduce the price by at least three-quarters.

I will continue to challenge the claims you make, and continue to argue that as a Trade Member you should not be making negative comments about another Trade members products in their thread.

That’s an awfut lot of rights you have there, Andrew, but I’m not sure Nick is under any obligation to meet your demands. I think it’s pretty clear that his cables do reduce RF, as almost any ferrited cable does to a greater or lesser extent, and whether a prospective purchaser considers this beneficial and value fo money is down to them.

I am surprised however, that Nick seems unconcerned about the massive conflict of interest between his position as a cable vendor and some of his contributons to this and other forums which are clearly marketing his cables. I wish him every success, but should he really be doing it here?

 

[Triode User]

That’s an awfut lot of rights you have there, Andrew, but I’m not sure Nick is under any obligation to meet your demands. I think it’s pretty clear that his cables do reduce RF, as almost any ferrited cable does to a greater or lesser extent, and whether a prospective purchaser considers this beneficial and value fo money is down to them.

I am surprised however, that Nick seems unconcerned about the massive conflict of interest between his position as a cable vendor and some of his contributons to this and other forums which are clearly marketing his cables. I wish him every success, but should he really be doing it here?

Colin, Good points. I'll rein in!

 

[dawktah2]

That’s an awfut lot of rights you have there, Andrew, but I’m not sure Nick is under any obligation to meet your demands. I think it’s pretty clear that his cables do reduce RF, as almost any ferrited cable does to a greater or lesser extent, and whether a prospective purchaser considers this beneficial and value fo money is down to them.

I am surprised however, that Nick seems unconcerned about the massive conflict of interest between his position as a cable vendor and some of his contributons to this and other forums which are clearly marketing his cables. I wish him every success, but should he really be doing it here?

To someone like me that did not read the extensive discussion on the Blu2 thread this discussion takes away from learning about whether it should remain on my 2019 purchase list. The tone is that a $4,795 USD out of the box is that it's "defective." Words do matter as now I have to really decide if it is "harsh and bright" I guess I personally get worn down by the constant desire to use the colloquialism "trick something out." Especially when it isn't necessary for all people.

Maybe another thread is needed for those who must discuss modifying something that's only been available for a short time.

 

[Crgreen]

To someone like me that did not read the extensive discussion on the Blu2 thread this discussion takes away from learning about whether it should remain on my 2019 purchase list. The tone is that a $4,795 USD out of the box is that it's "defective." Words do matter as now I have to really decide if it is "harsh and bright" I guess I personally get worn down by the constant desire to use the colloquialism "trick something out." Especially when it isn't necessary for all people.

Maybe another thread is needed for those who must discuss modifying something that's only been available for a short time.

I don’t think anyone’s said that, and I’d not come across “trick something out” before. Is it being used a lot?

 

[dawktah2]

I don’t think anyone’s said that, and I’d not come across “trick something out” before. Is it being used a lot?

Crgreen it wasn't you. Maybe I misread the post I'll have to edit and find it but is called the unit digitally harsh and bright.

EDIT: This post: https://www.head-fi.org/threads/hug...official-thread.885042/page-152#post-14564397