[Christer]

H

I didn’t see those posts. Could you point me to one of them? I have mostly seen high praise, and it could be interesting to know different opinions.
In my system and to my ears the differences are subtle. Still waiting to experience this transformational change that several members have reported. At first listen I attributed the great analogue sound in my system to the M Scaler, but by switching back and forth between pass through (red) and full upscale (white), I came to the conclusion that Dave is an absolutely amazing DAC, and the full upscaled HMS only made a subtle difference. This was of course disappointing , because 1)I had really high expectations, and 2) I bought two (for two setups).
My preliminary conclusion is that HMS may not be targeted people like me with less than perfect ears. Many years with a violin under my chin and years of playing in a symphony orchestra may not have done any good to my hearing either. However, what I believe to hear with the full upscaling HMS is a more open and free sound. It may be called a bigger soundstage in audiophile terms.
It is also possible that I need more time to appreciate the improvements that the HMS brings, so time will tell.
I must stress that I do believe what people report about their experiences with great improvements, so I have no desire to dispute any of those positive findings that have been expressed already! But people’s ability to hear small audible variations differ a lot, as expressed by Rob Watts already, and I may be one audiophile with less sensitive and untrained ears.
On a side note, one thing that I would like to find out is, if Dave sounds different without the HMS in the path vs HMS in pass through mode. I have a suspicion that there is a difference. Just need some time to test it..

Hello Danish 71,
It would be interesting to know what you listened to and not find such a big advantage with M-scaler connected o DAVE,as some others here have reported.
You mention that you have been playing the violin in orchestras for many years.
If you have been sitting in one of the rows right in front of the sometimes very loud brass section maybe your hearing has been affected? They can get very loud at times. Too loud for the rest of the orchestra players. Maybe that was the reason Richard Strauss,s gave the following advice to young conductors: "Never look at the brass players it will just encourage them to play even louder than they already do."
On the other hand if your hearing isn't damaged and you listened to well recorded classical music I would have thought that if M-scaler really brings what it promises, a symphonic orchestra violinist would be an ideal person to actually hear any big advantages over Dave on its own.
I had the opportunity to hear Baroque violins playing with gut strings and tuned to 432 instead of the modern 440 last night and the difference in the sound from both soloists in Bach's famous Double Concerto and the whole Ensemble playing tutti was amazing and very obvious.
Very warm, very mellow and darker than modern violins.
Not a hint of the steeliness that so often ruins string sound with digital reproduction. But of course this was live!

If such to me very important differences are not immediately obvious in a HIFI system imho it simply doesn't deliver the goods.
But I expect both Dave on its own and with an added M-scaler to do so easily provided the rest of the system also does.

I don't own a DAVE but I have to say that with well recorded classical music Dave is probably still one of the best Dacs money can buy.
And difficult to really improve on I suppose?

Personally I am possibly thinking of buying an M-scaler for my Qutest and I already partly know from some short initial auditions of my Qutest with Blu2 that it will be easier to hear what M-scaler adds in this combo than with Dave.

But whether what it brings will be enough for me to part with the money asked for an M-scaler is something that will need very long and intensive auditions with hi res reference material where I have direct reference to how it sounded live at recording sessions.
Cheers Controversial Christer

 

[SuperBurrito]

It's sometimes said that the best hifi gear takes time to appreciate. I guess it would also depend on partnering equipment.

Agreed but for me the benefits of any meaningful upgrade are totally and immediately obvious, even to non-audiophile friends or a spouse.

 

[Clive101]

It raises a red flag as a DAVE owner who is considering HMS.

Something else to try: feeding the battery powered source into HMS, have HMS and DAVE both plugged into the same wall socket for power. Do not use a power conditioner or some kind of multi-way power bar.

Another test: set the source (can be mains-powered) to upsample the USB feed to HMS. Try 88.2 or 176.4KHz, to see if it makes a difference? This test is to see if this is like a problem that has been reported with other Chord DACs. In some reported cases (including my own) upsampling the USB output reduced or eliminated drop-outs/pops.

I use a Torus 16 AVR 2 and a Torus TOT AVR in two locations so unlikely to be mains but will try to replicate the issue and then switch to standard mains.

I will try the High Res as well.

I Would like to point out when I have the drop out the audio goes silent for about the time it takes to click your fingers and then resumes, if it were mains would there not be a click or pop?
It appears to be some type of buffering.....then starts again in a very short time period. Dave screen does not flicker or flash.

 

[ZappaMan]

Agreed but for me the benefits of any meaningful upgrade are totally and immediately obvious, even to non-audiophile friends or a spouse.

For me it was immediately obvious, but as you become used to it, it becomes the new normal, so you’re not sure what the old way sounded like.

 

[danish71]

H


Hello Danish 71,
It would be interesting to know what you listened to and not find such a big advantage with M-scaler connected o DAVE,as some others here have reported.
You mention that you have been playing the violin in orchestras for many years.
If you have been sitting in one of the rows right in front of the sometimes very loud brass section maybe your hearing has been affected? They can get very loud at times. Too loud for the rest of the orchestra players. Maybe that was the reason Richard Strauss,s gave the following advice to young conductors: "Never look at the brass players it will just encourage them to play even louder than they already do."
On the other hand if your hearing isn't damaged and you listened to well recorded classical music I would have thought that if M-scaler really brings what it promises, a symphonic orchestra violinist would be an ideal person to actually hear any big advantages over Dave on its own.
I had the opportunity to hear Baroque violins playing with gut strings and tuned to 432 instead of the modern 440 last night and the difference in the sound from both soloists in Bach's famous Double Concerto and the whole Ensemble playing tutti was amazing and very obvious.
Very warm, very mellow and darker than modern violins.
Not a hint of the steeliness that so often ruins string sound with digital reproduction. But of course this was live!

If such to me very important differences are not immediately obvious in a HIFI system imho it simply doesn't deliver the goods.
But I expect both Dave on its own and with an added M-scaler to do so easily provided the rest of the system also does.

I don't own a DAVE but I have to say that with well recorded classical music Dave is probably still one of the best Dacs money can buy.
And difficult to really improve on I suppose?

Personally I am possibly thinking of buying an M-scaler for my Qutest and I already partly know from some short initial auditions of my Qutest with Blu2 that it will be easier to hear what M-scaler adds in this combo than with Dave.

But whether what it brings will be enough for me to part with the money asked for an M-scaler is something that will need very long and intensive auditions with hi res reference material where I have direct reference to how it sounded live at recording sessions.
Cheers Controversial Christer

Professional musicians do not necessarily listen in the same way or listen for the same things in music as audiophiles. I know only very few musicians that are really into hifi. Personally I have always weighted timbre and the different sound colours that an instrument like a violin can produce. And that has been an influence on how I listen to my music system. Sound stage, dynamics, instrument separation, and depth was not something I have been focusing on in a system until quite recently - and I have only started to open my eyes to those aspects in hifi listening. Yes, I mean "hifi listening", because focusing on micro details, room information and other audiophile aspects is for me not necessarily the same as enjoying music. I'd rather call it audio gear worship. But being moved by music doesn't always take a 100,000$ hifi system. Sometimes a car radio will do.
Gut strings do indeed sound very different than steel or perlon strings, so I can vividly imagine that the Bach Double concerto sounded mellow and dark. But they didn't have anything else at the time Never been great fan of this facsimile practice.
I listen to a wide selection of genres through the HMS, including classical orchestral works. I like the recordings with Eiji Oue and Minnesota SO. Some of my favorite jazz singers are Cécile Mclorin Salvant and Emilie-Claire Barlow. Love Beady Belle. One of my favorite violinists is Michael Rabin - impecable technique and plays with such nerve. Other than that lots of jazz and pop music.
Maybe the HMS is something for you, maybe not. Only you can decide whether it's worth the money. Audiophiles are willing to spend crazy money on even diminutive improvements - or shall we say changes.
Yes, the Dave is crazy good, and if you have the funds and want the best, then that is the one to get - M Scaler or not.
Some people have stated that H2/TT2 + HMS beats solo Dave, and I haven't tested that with my own H2 and HMS, but logically I don't understand the claim. To me it sounds like some people forget about the vastly superior analogue output stage of Dave, and somehow I don't understand how the HMS technically can compensate for that. After all, there is a limit to everything. But what do I know with my not so golden ears.

 

[lovethatsound]

I use a Torus 16 AVR 2 and a Torus TOT AVR in two locations so unlikely to be mains but will try to replicate the issue and then switch to standard mains.

I will try the High Res as well.

I Would like to point out when I have the drop out the audio goes silent for about the time it takes to click your fingers and then resumes, if it were mains would there not be a click or pop?
It appears to be some type of buffering.....then starts again in a very short time period. Dave screen does not flicker or flash.

I used to get this problem with the original Hugo and naim hdx when using bnc.Drop outs were corsed by light switchs and other electrical gadgets being turned on or off.

 

[GreenLeo]

Professional musicians do not necessarily listen in the same way or listen for the same things in music as audiophiles. I know only very few musicians that are really into hifi. Personally I have always weighted timbre and the different sound colours that an instrument like a violin can produce. And that has been an influence on how I listen to my music system. Sound stage, dynamics, instrument separation, and depth was not something I have been focusing on in a system until quite recently - and I have only started to open my eyes to those aspects in hifi listening. Yes, I mean "hifi listening", because focusing on micro details, room information and other audiophile aspects is for me not necessarily the same as enjoying music. I'd rather call it audio gear worship. But being moved by music doesn't always take a 100,000$ hifi system. Sometimes a car radio will do.
Gut strings do indeed sound very different than steel or perlon strings, so I can vividly imagine that the Bach Double concerto sounded mellow and dark. But they didn't have anything else at the time Never been great fan of this facsimile practice.
I listen to a wide selection of genres through the HMS, including classical orchestral works. I like the recordings with Eiji Oue and Minnesota SO. Some of my favorite jazz singers are Cécile Mclorin Salvant and Emilie-Claire Barlow. Love Beady Belle. One of my favorite violinists is Michael Rabin - impecable technique and plays with such nerve. Other than that lots of jazz and pop music.
Maybe the HMS is something for you, maybe not. Only you can decide whether it's worth the money. Audiophiles are willing to spend crazy money on even diminutive improvements - or shall we say changes.
Yes, the Dave is crazy good, and if you have the funds and want the best, then that is the one to get - M Scaler or not.
Some people have stated that H2/TT2 + HMS beats solo Dave, and I haven't tested that with my own H2 and HMS, but logically I don't understand the claim. To me it sounds like some people forget about the vastly superior analogue output stage of Dave, and somehow I don't understand how the HMS technically can compensate for that. After all, there is a limit to everything. But what do I know with my not so golden ears.

One of my friends is a pianist who never find HiFi essential. She told me she enjoys the melody (she use term music) rather than microscopic details. Another friend plays cello and he spends relatively a lot in HiFi. I enjoy life music, the "being there" atmosphere, hence the difference of the spatial clues between different systems could be very apparent. In this area HMS+DAVE trumps DAVE, hands down.

Each to his/her own, I guess.

 

[Deftone]

One of my friends is a pianist who never find HiFi essential. She told me she enjoys the melody (she use term music) rather than microscopic details. Another friend plays cello and he spends relatively a lot in HiFi. I enjoy life music, the "being there" atmosphere, hence the difference of the spatial clues between different systems could be very apparent. In this area HMS+DAVE trumps DAVE, hands down..

Yes most definitely but dont you mean HTT2 + HMS?

 

[dawktah2]

It's sometimes said that the best hifi gear takes time to appreciate. I guess it would also depend on partnering equipment.

The most genuine example of this was when I upgraded to Blu-Ray. My wife insisted there was no improvement in picture but I could see it right away. After about a month I popped in a DVD and she remarked "what's wrong with the picture?"

 

[GreenLeo]

Yes most definitely but dont you mean HTT2 + HMS?

No, I mean HMS + DAVE as the original text.

I don't have a TT2 and never listen to it, and hence will not comment. The analogue HP output of the DAVE is significantly better (as I'm told and I believe as well) than the rest of the Chord products. For the one who wants the best, HMS + DAVE could be the holy grail. This is true for people using the Omega single driver monitors.

Anyway, my point is different people enjoys different things, each to his/her own.

Regards.

 

[Clive101]

It raises a red flag as a DAVE owner who is considering HMS.

Something else to try: feeding the battery powered source into HMS, have HMS and DAVE both plugged into the same wall socket for power. Do not use a power conditioner or some kind of multi-way power bar.

Another test: set the source (can be mains-powered) to upsample the USB feed to HMS. Try 88.2 or 176.4KHz, to see if it makes a difference? This test is to see if this is like a problem that has been reported with other Chord DACs. In some reported cases (including my own) upsampling the USB output reduced or eliminated drop-outs/pops.

I think I am getting to the issue thanks to your advice, Mscaler when played for a few hours warms up and when I play a standard 44.1 - 16 flac I get drop outs say 5 per track I then played a 192 - 24 flac without issues several tracks.

Although I must stress, I need to try several times to rule out any coincidence.

Did you resolve your drop out issues with the lower res files, if so how...? Thank You.

 

[GreenBow]

I used to get this problem with the original Hugo and naim hdx when using bnc.Drop outs were corsed by light switchs and other electrical gadgets being turned on or off.

I read that is caused by the power supply, and buying mains supply stuff like the following is supposed to help.
https://www.whathifi.com/lindy/6-way/review
https://www.whathifi.com/russ-andrews/x6/review

 

[Tao8]

Placebo or not this is completely my drug of choice... mmmmm scaler is playing the mmmmmusic perfffffectly.

Absolutely loving every one of my new one million taps!

 

[Christer]

Professional musicians do not necessarily listen in the same way or listen for the same things in music as audiophiles. I know only very few musicians that are really into hifi. Personally I have always weighted timbre and the different sound colours that an instrument like a violin can produce. And that has been an influence on how I listen to my music system. Sound stage, dynamics, instrument separation, and depth was not something I have been focusing on in a system until quite recently - and I have only started to open my eyes to those aspects in hifi listening. Yes, I mean "hifi listening", because focusing on micro details, room information and other audiophile aspects is for me not necessarily the same as enjoying music. I'd rather call it audio gear worship. But being moved by music doesn't always take a 100,000$ hifi system. Sometimes a car radio will do.
Gut strings do indeed sound very different than steel or perlon strings, so I can vividly imagine that the Bach Double concerto sounded mellow and dark. But they didn't have anything else at the time Never been great fan of this facsimile practice.
I listen to a wide selection of genres through the HMS, including classical orchestral works. I like the recordings with Eiji Oue and Minnesota SO. Some of my favorite jazz singers are Cécile Mclorin Salvant and Emilie-Claire Barlow. Love Beady Belle. One of my favorite violinists is Michael Rabin - impecable technique and plays with such nerve. Other than that lots of jazz and pop music.
Maybe the HMS is something for you, maybe not. Only you can decide whether it's worth the money. Audiophiles are willing to spend crazy money on even diminutive improvements - or shall we say changes.
Yes, the Dave is crazy good, and if you have the funds and want the best, then that is the one to get - M Scaler or not.
Some people have stated that H2/TT2 + HMS beats solo Dave, and I haven't tested that with my own H2 and HMS, but logically I don't understand the claim. To me it sounds like some people forget about the vastly superior analogue output stage of Dave, and somehow I don't understand how the HMS technically can compensate for that. After all, there is a limit to everything. But what do I know with my not so golden ears.

Hello again Danish71,
and thanks for your response.
I also care a lot about instrumental pitch ,timbre and tonality. And for me digital has had bigger problems to reproduce strings as I am used to hear them on a regular basis at live concerts and sometimes recording sessions of classical music than analogue from both LPs and analogue tape.
As a photographer I sometimes get to hear the music from the perspective the conductor or the musicians themselves hear it when performing and it is of course often very diffferent from the sometimes very manipulated final balance that those who only get to hear recordings hear and expect.

And even from a very good seat in the stalls in most halls one never hears such pinpoint instrument location and depth as audiophiles have come to expect and believe is the most realistic.
So to make me buy a crazy money, M-scaler it will have to clearly bring even better more realistic timbre to both instruments and the human voice than my current DAC Qutest does on its own.

Regarding HIP practices I am also not a fan of those, especially when the practice of non vibrato is done with modern string instruments.
The sound has a tendency to become too steely and wiry for me.
Something some DACs make even worse to my ears.

But The Orchestra of the Age of the Enlightenment that I heard two nights ago ,sounded very nice in Baroque repertoire like Bach ,Handel and Vivaldi though sligthly less convincing compared to how I am used to hear Mozart's music.
The valveless horns sounded a bit out of tune now and then to me, but strings were nice and very sweet in a way one rarely hears this days from other orchestras.
I much prefer modern horns with valves.
They were a real improvement once introduced imho.
I quite like gut strings although they can be a pain to keep in tune especially in a hot humid climate like Soth East Asia.
And the downtuning took a bit to adjust to also . But if that is how Mozart himself tuned his violin who am I to question it?
Cheers and enjoy your DAVE and if you have more to add regarding M-scaler ket us know.
I trust people with actual experiences of how acoustic instruments sound live much more than audiophiles with references only to their favourite recordings.

Cheers Controversial Christer just getting ready to go to another live Concert tonight, this time in Singapore and a modern orchestra the SSO.

 

[ciukas]

Some people have stated that H2/TT2 + HMS beats solo Dave, and I haven't tested that with my own H2 and HMS, but logically I don't understand the claim. To me it sounds like some people forget about the vastly superior analogue output stage of Dave, and somehow I don't understand how the HMS technically can compensate for that. After all, there is a limit to everything. But what do I know with my not so golden ears.

You can logically understand how the superior analog op stage of the DAVE is better for transparency but you can’t logically understand how on the digital side, all the missing bits of data recovered computationally from the the original analog waveform can technically sound better?

Isn’t it a little like saying Hugo2 + original mastertape can’t technically beat DAVE + 128kbps? I don’t doubt what you’re hearing, but I’m not quite sure having golden ears is a prerequisite.