Hugo M Scaler by Chord Electronics - The Official Thread
Apr 19, 2024 at 1:35 PM Post #18,346 of 18,478
Is there a reference online where Rob said this? Curious the context for which he said it. I guess my amateur mind thinks that if toslink is easily better than all other connections, then it would have to mean one of the following:
1. The source going into the DAC has poor implementation in the other outputs
2. Chord products have poor implementation in the other inputs (doesn't seem logical as anal as Rob is on his designs)
3. Lastly, it is just a fact that toslink is THE best digital implementation on the market...which I have not personally heard.

So I would like to hear Rob's comments on this and in what context if there is a reference I could read/watch.

This (my favourite) post from Rob W also mentions it but does not answer all your questions, but see he has posted some more above which is a lot more detailed:

https://www.head-fi.org/threads/watts-up.800264/page-247#post-17293040
 
Last edited:
Apr 19, 2024 at 2:37 PM Post #18,347 of 18,478
I'm not getting involved, but I don't plan to be back until Summer Project 2025 since my Summer Project 2024 has concluded. I only have energy for Summer Projects in this hobby so I'm not full-time so I'll share my alternative POV.

I think the goal here is to quell the masses to put down their pitchforks. Toslink is a nice bandage solution, but IMO not the most optimal. But to get optimal, you need Super Caps and I highly discourage anyone from implementing Super Caps because there are real risks. This is a general Audio problem not specific to just Chord.

Yes, Toslink might initially sound better but after the brain adapts over time USB optical is the only way to achieve Chord Purity IMO. It's the right fundamentally ASYNC sound implementation to pursue. But I guess if you are feeding an HMS, Toslink will just act like a dummy feeder spitting out "Square Waves" so the Toslink Receiver just needs to decipher the 1s and 0s. But you are still dealing with digital artifacts (Harmonic Distortions) from the Toslink Source. A variance I no longer consider "Pure". After the honeymoon period with Toslink, USB optical will generally smooth out the fluctuations over time to get the "Pure" Chord Sound. It will flatten the curve, so USB optical wins out in the long run after the brain adapts.

But this is like asking your CPU Designer to build you a highly-spec PC. I would not trust my CPU Designer to do so. I don't know why there is such a dependence on the DAC Designer to hold your hand. It's a daunting task for him to take on. I see so many snitch to the DAC Designer too. They can't even wipe their buts without running to the DAC Designer. You can't expect the DAC Designer to try out every possible available modern solution either, so legacy Toslink is a safe choice for the normie user in 2nd Quarter of 2024.

Over the years, I've seen comments about the Chord USB input being defective. I remained skeptical. Yes, I h8ed USB but I not going to go as far as calling it defective. It was not until I unlocked Galvanic Isolation and used a USB optical cable (Technically, it can be considered Toslink too if you narrow it down to just the internal optical wiring). I now have the best of both worlds, but in my experience both the USB and Toslink inputs are solid.

So it is a difficult balancing act. For the 90% of normies out there, Toslink should do the job. For the enthusiast / purists there is another option, but with strings attached.

I can't take a USB chain seriously also without PCI-E in the mix, that's why I would never trust my DAC Designer to architect my chain. 90%+ of his suggestions are solid, but again his specialty is DAC Designing which has nothing to do with how to put a chain together. Doesn't even know PCI-E exists.

So toslink is a safe choice as it just feeds 1s and 0s while decoupling. But I found USB optical while also decoupling is the purest way to get that Chord Sound especially with non-amplified Live Music. While I still enjoy Toslink, the fundamentally sound thing to do is to let it go. Before 2024, Toslink camp. During 2024 as the curve flattened (brain burn-in), USB optical for the long-term as it's the right thing to do but with huge strings attached. But I'm also obsessed with Soundstage Depth since that is a thing now with USB optical.

Also, for modern DACs the goal is to feed data as close the the DAC PLL as possible. With ASYNC USB, data buffers internally near the PLL. Toslink is an external complication. Your outsourcing the data instead of handling it internally.

Before I go on hiatus, shout out to romaz (Chord Legend circa 2017) for recommending the USB optical cable at the start of COVID. It changed my Chord ARC and I now understand the Chord Sound in it's purest form but only after Super Cap supply chains replenished Post-COVID.

Tuff Hobby.
 
Last edited:
Apr 19, 2024 at 2:43 PM Post #18,348 of 18,478
This (my favourite) post from Rob W also mentions it but does not answer all your questions, but see he has posted some more above which is a lot more detailed:

https://www.head-fi.org/threads/watts-up.800264/page-247#post-17293040
Thanks for sharing this. I see a number of posts of people going down rabbit holes but from what I’ve taken from Rob’s comments is that if you are using a quality source on usb running on battery it can sound just as good as optical. I sure like my simple set up (iPad usb-c>M Scaler) and seems this would meet Rob’s definition.

Is it worth experimenting with usb>optical converters when using an iPad? Guess I could spend $50 and try. My gut says it will be a waste of $50. Maybe more useful if your source is a computer that is plugged into power.
https://a.co/d/1tcNg9e
 
Apr 19, 2024 at 8:07 PM Post #18,349 of 18,478
I'm not getting involved, but I don't plan to be back until Summer Project 2025 since my Summer Project 2024 has concluded. I only have energy for Summer Projects in this hobby so I'm not full-time so I'll share my alternative POV.

I think the goal here is to quell the masses to put down their pitchforks. Toslink is a nice bandage solution, but IMO not the most optimal. But to get optimal, you need Super Caps and I highly discourage anyone from implementing Super Caps because there are real risks. This is a general Audio problem not specific to just Chord.

Yes, Toslink might initially sound better but after the brain adapts over time USB optical is the only way to achieve Chord Purity IMO. It's the right fundamentally ASYNC sound implementation to pursue. But I guess if you are feeding an HMS, Toslink will just act like a dummy feeder spitting out "Square Waves" so the Toslink Receiver just needs to decipher the 1s and 0s. But you are still dealing with digital artifacts (Harmonic Distortions) from the Toslink Source. A variance I no longer consider "Pure". After the honeymoon period with Toslink, USB optical will generally smooth out the fluctuations over time to get the "Pure" Chord Sound. It will flatten the curve, so USB optical wins out in the long run after the brain adapts.

But this is like asking your CPU Designer to build you a highly-spec PC. I would not trust my CPU Designer to do so. I don't know why there is such a dependence on the DAC Designer to hold your hand. It's a daunting task for him to take on. I see so many snitch to the DAC Designer too. They can't even wipe their buts without running to the DAC Designer. You can't expect the DAC Designer to try out every possible available modern solution either, so legacy Toslink is a safe choice for the normie user in 2nd Quarter of 2024.

Over the years, I've seen comments about the Chord USB input being defective. I remained skeptical. Yes, I h8ed USB but I not going to go as far as calling it defective. It was not until I unlocked Galvanic Isolation and used a USB optical cable (Technically, it can be considered Toslink too if you narrow it down to just the internal optical wiring). I now have the best of both worlds, but in my experience both the USB and Toslink inputs are solid.

So it is a difficult balancing act. For the 90% of normies out there, Toslink should do the job. For the enthusiast / purists there is another option, but with strings attached.

I can't take a USB chain seriously also without PCI-E in the mix, that's why I would never trust my DAC Designer to architect my chain. 90%+ of his suggestions are solid, but again his specialty is DAC Designing which has nothing to do with how to put a chain together. Doesn't even know PCI-E exists.

So toslink is a safe choice as it just feeds 1s and 0s while decoupling. But I found USB optical while also decoupling is the purest way to get that Chord Sound especially with non-amplified Live Music. While I still enjoy Toslink, the fundamentally sound thing to do is to let it go. Before 2024, Toslink camp. During 2024 as the curve flattened (brain burn-in), USB optical for the long-term as it's the right thing to do but with huge strings attached. But I'm also obsessed with Soundstage Depth since that is a thing now with USB optical.

Also, for modern DACs the goal is to feed data as close the the DAC PLL as possible. With ASYNC USB, data buffers internally near the PLL. Toslink is an external complication. Your outsourcing the data instead of handling it internally.

Before I go on hiatus, shout out to romaz (Chord Legend circa 2017) for recommending the USB optical cable at the start of COVID. It changed my Chord ARC and I now understand the Chord Sound in it's purest form but only after Super Cap supply chains replenished Post-COVID.

Tuff Hobby.
And your brain may "adjust" and crave Toslink again 😂 😂 😂. The brain sure is a curious thing, I guess that evolutionary change of never been satisfied is still alive and well, at the end of the day we all need to stop analyzing what we hear and just hear. After that it'll be fine 😂
 
Apr 19, 2024 at 8:34 PM Post #18,350 of 18,478
I sure like my simple set up (iPad usb-c>M Scaler) and seems this would meet Rob’s definition.

Is it worth experimenting with usb>optical converters when using an iPad? Guess I could spend $50 and try. My gut says it will be a waste of $50. Maybe more useful if your source is a computer that is plugged into power.
https://a.co/d/1tcNg9e
No. I don’t hear a sonic difference between my iPad into Chord products vs my streamer Toslink into Chord products. As long as you’re not using some weird USB-C splitter where you’re charging your iPad while feeding USB signals to the M-Scaler. The problem of RF noise going into the USB of Chord products is actually coming from the power supply RF noise of the streamer/computer going through the USB into Chord and then coming out of the power supply of the Chord through a ground connection. Battery powered iPads don’t have such a connection so you’re fine. All Chord products can filter whatever little bit of USB noise that’s coming out of your fairly new iPad running on battery.
 
Apr 19, 2024 at 8:38 PM Post #18,351 of 18,478
Thanks! This is what I thought would be the case. Simplicity it is. 👍
 
Last edited:
Apr 19, 2024 at 10:29 PM Post #18,352 of 18,478
Thanks for sharing this. I see a number of posts of people going down rabbit holes but from what I’ve taken from Rob’s comments is that if you are using a quality source on usb running on battery it can sound just as good as optical. I sure like my simple set up (iPad usb-c>M Scaler) and seems this would meet Rob’s definition.

Is it worth experimenting with usb>optical converters when using an iPad? Guess I could spend $50 and try. My gut says it will be a waste of $50. Maybe more useful if your source is a computer that is plugged into power.
https://a.co/d/1tcNg9e
Optical is much better and better to avoid USB on mscaler and other chord dacs even on battery.
 
Apr 19, 2024 at 10:35 PM Post #18,353 of 18,478


Before I go on hiatus, shout out to romaz (Chord Legend circa 2017) for recommending the USB optical cable at the start of COVID. It changed my Chord ARC and I now understand the Chord Sound in it's purest form but only after Super Cap supply chains replenished Post-COVID.

Tuff Hobby.
Another alternative?
Post #3
https://www.head-fi.org/threads/optical-usb-cable.972459/post-18072517

To save everyone time, this is the USB optical used by romaz, "was" a good friend of Rob before???
https://www.ebay.com/itm/195197462712?chn=ps&_trkparms=ispr=1&amdata=enc:1ZorUcmTJTzW-Rl03vWbnJg26&norover=1&mkevt=1&mkrid=711-167022-050914-3&mkcid=2&itemid=195197462712&targetid=293946777986&device=m&mktype=pla&googleloc=9062548&poi=&campaignid=19979127116&mkgroupid=148909795140&rlsatarget=pla-293946777986&abcId=&merchantid=6296724&gad_source=1&gclid=CjwKCAjwrIixBhBbEiwACEqDJflbRYqQytE_LaXpUsTGRuZkRAdP-X9Hze4CenQvEfUyFGdHfMm4xhoCfS8QAvD_BwE
 
Last edited:
Apr 20, 2024 at 12:58 PM Post #18,357 of 18,478
To a layman like me, the USB alter the 1s and 0s?
With USB the data integrity (altering of the actual 1's and 0's) would only depend on whether the player/source was doing any kind of DSP. Same for SPDIF etc. 99% of DDCs, streamers, sources are or have the ability to be bitperfect.

With SPDIF/AES/I2S there is a clock signal used for audio and the quality of that clock signal from the source can affect the jitter performance of the DAC, so even when bitperfect and ignoring noise, the source can make a difference.

With USB there is no audio clock signal and it has no effect on jitter, the only thing you need to be concerned about is noise. A beefy gaming PC for instance is likely one of the worst/noisiest components you could add into an audio chain.

Others have suggested various optical USB solutions and whilst these will indeed block any noise from the source (since there's no electrical connection, it's just light), there is generally almost no testing to see how noisy they themselves are. Optical transceivers can be pretty noisy so with many of these there is a possibility that using them could actually be worse than the source you were using before.

If wanting an isolator that has been demonstrated to be ridiculously low noise the Intona 7055-C is absolutely excellent though unfortunately not all that cheap. But if you can get one that's basically your USB source 'solved'.
The only remaining consideration is that using any sort of galvanic isolator or optical solution will leave the USB connection ungrounded. This generally is not an issue if the DAC itself is grounded, but some (RME ADI-2 as the first example that pops into my head) are not themselves grounded and so this can then lead to other issues.
Generally if your DAC has a proper 3-prong PSU connection and you have grounded mains you're fine

1713632224106.png
 
Apr 20, 2024 at 1:42 PM Post #18,358 of 18,478
Apr 20, 2024 at 1:50 PM Post #18,359 of 18,478
Apr 20, 2024 at 2:19 PM Post #18,360 of 18,478
Best not to use optical into the mscaler as it has significantly higher jitter when not using USB in

I thought Chord products were very resilient in the face of jitter, independent of input. Is this incorrect?
 

Users who are viewing this thread

Back
Top