[Jawed]

Neither can I, but the audible effect is not due to us hearing 22khz content directly from a frequency domain perspective (humans cannot hear above generally 20khz). But rather the time domain information that then provides.

As stated earlier, whilst we cannot hear frequency domain information above 20khz, there is evidence showing we can hear time domain differences as low as 10uS which would require a frequency domain bandwidth of about 100khz to describe.

https://phys.org/news/2013-02-human-fourier-uncertainty-principle.html
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3663869/

I have a theory that the timing errors produced by non-Nyquist DACs (or, if you prefer, their filtering) can be demonstrated with a simple difference method.

Using a WAV file of white noise, create a second file that reverses the samples from the original file.

Pass both files through the DAC (or filter) and then reverse the resulting samples of the second file. In theory this second file, after having been reversed twice, will have the same samples as the original file.

I'm guessing it won't, because of time domain errors introduced by the filter. Performing a difference of the two files will presumably produce a file that has some kind of noise.

I guess the noise will vary in its character depending upon the nature of the DAC/filter...

 

[Meridian7]

... I am with science on this one.

I have the very well measured RME ADI2 FS right here, bought it, recommended by ASR, can use it whenever I want. Still, I prefer my chords. Even the mojo1 which sounds less exact than the RME, has more convincing LIFE in the music.

It took me a while to determine more exactly what that 'life factor' was. The RME's sound is soooo bloody perfect, but IN my head. The chords then no/lesser sounds comes from within my head. But from outside/around my head. So no 'new information' definitely, but in how that information is brought forth.

I've mojo1, mojo2, hugoTT2, mscaler. I would sell immediately if indicators suggest me.

It's actually a crazy situation, near all of ASR adepts think I must be a gullible psy BS victim, while I in return think you guys are gullible science victims. We feel for each other isn't it, this is so weird.

PS: I've seen those vids of reconstruction sine waves from samples twice max freq, but I can't deny what I hear either, and for listening guess what matters most?

(Edited for grammar error only)

 

[GuiltyRocker]

I have the very well measured RME ADI2 FS right here, bought it, recommended by ASR, can use it whenever I want. Still, I prefer my chords. Even the mojo1 which sounds less exact than de RME, has more convincing LIFE in the music.

It took me a while to determine more exactly what that 'life factor' was. The RME's sound is soooo bloody perfect, but IN my head. The chords then no/lesser sounds comes from within my head. But from outside/around my head. So no 'new information' definitely, but in how that information brought forth.

I've mojo1, mojo2, hugoTT2, mscaler. I would sell immediately if indicators suggest me.

It's actually a crazy situation, near all of ASR adepts think I must be a gullible psy BS victim, while I in return think you guys are gullible science victims. We feel for each other isn't it, this so weird.

PS: I've seen those vids of reconstruction sine waves from samples twice max freq, but I can't deny what I hear either, and for listening guess what matters most?

Those guys have no idea how to measure time domain accuracy, their cult leader attempted to post an impulse analysis and it was a joke, I follow my ears not some nonsense about SINAD at 1khz.

 

[Meridian7]

Those guys have no idea how to measure time domain accuracy, their cult leader attempted to post an impulse analysis and it was a joke, I follow my ears not some nonsense about SINAD at 1khz.

I believe we humans have a strong side-choosing subroutine embedded in the DNA , to defend X and battle Y. I see it active on playgrounds, politics, within family, sociologically, everywhere actually, why not in (hifi) fora?
Both X and Y have imho a core element of truth somewhere somehow to fuel on, followed by a grey zone where the battle happens.
I'm not exempted as is no one I think.
I believe the consensus exist inevitably but is rarely reached, some sort of Alpha tendencies prohibiting, all in accordance to natural drives.

I realize to digress from hifi into philosophy here but I hope this zooming out might soften some stress, it does that for me anyway: while not leaving my stances 1 inch I understand my 'opponents' being as is.

 

[GuiltyRocker]

I believe we humans have a strong side-choosing subroutine embedded in the DNA , to defend X and battle Y. I see it active on playgrounds, politics, within family, sociologically, everywhere actually, why not in (hifi) fora?
Both X and Y have imho a core element of truth somewhere somehow to fuel on, followed by a grey zone where the battle happens.
I'm not exempted as is no one I think.
I believe the consensus exist inevitably but is rarely reached, some sort of Alpha tendencies prohibiting, all in accordance to natural drives.

I realize to digress from hifi into philosophy here but I hope this zooming out might soften some stress, it does that for me anyway: while not leaving my stances 1 inch I understand my 'opponents' being as is.

That can be true, but just stating facts here. Look at their attempt to measure impulse response. Human beings have preference, there are some that keep attacking others, because they go about things differently. I'm in this hobby to enjoy music and found the devices that allow me to enjoy it properly, those devices are Chord DACs and Parasound amps, I listened to a Chord Amplifier and did not like it at all, all I like from Chord is Rob's DACs. So you see, not really attached to the brand.

 

[johnwillmclean]

I have the very well measured RME ADI2 FS right here, bought it, recommended by ASR, can use it whenever I want. Still, I prefer my chords. Even the mojo1 which sounds less exact than the RME, has more convincing LIFE in the music.

It took me a while to determine more exactly what that 'life factor' was. The RME's sound is soooo bloody perfect, but IN my head. The chords then no/lesser sounds comes from within my head. But from outside/around my head. So no 'new information' definitely, but in how that information is brought forth.

I've mojo1, mojo2, hugoTT2, mscaler. I would sell immediately if indicators suggest me.

It's actually a crazy situation, near all of ASR adepts think I must be a gullible psy BS victim, while I in return think you guys are gullible science victims. We feel for each other isn't it, this is so weird.

PS: I've seen those vids of reconstruction sine waves from samples twice max freq, but I can't deny what I hear either, and for listening guess what matters most?

(Edited for grammar error only)

Then I guess you’ve tested using ASR methodology and found you could reliably confirm the better component, say 9/10 accuracy?

 

[griff500]

Then I guess you’ve tested using ASR methodology and found you could reliably confirm the better component, say 9/10 accuracy?

ASR methodology? They have created their own testing methodology?

 

[Meridian7]

Then I guess you’ve tested using ASR methodology and found you could reliably confirm the better component, say 9/10 accuracy?

Absolutely not, just like I skipped checking gravity this morning.

I thank you for reminding me to vocal the subjectivity of my findings. If that turns you or anyone else away from my posts, be my guest.

 

[Karnicopia]

I think what just happened to this thread is the ASR methodology.

 

[GuiltyRocker]

I think what just happened to this thread is the ASR methodology.

Haahhahahahahahhaa

 

[johnwillmclean]

Absolutely not, just like I skipped checking gravity this morning.

I thank you for reminding me to vocal the subjectivity of my findings. If that turns you or anyone else away from my posts, be my guest.

I can see why asr whipped your arse, you initiated interest and curiosity over there, but haven’t objectively tested crap.
And that’s ok! Good for you, you got new subjectives buddies now!

 

[Meridian7]

I can see why asr whipped your arse, you initiated interest and curiosity over there, but haven’t objectively tested crap.
And that’s ok! Good for you, you got new subjectives buddies now!

Seems we agree on this.

Now we're here you might(?) help me with this idea/conviction I have:
Imho it's a fallacy to remotely suppose that measuring and interpreting a measure is free of creating a psychological biasing in it's very own right. I'd rather go in not knowing at all and just listen.
How do ASR fans/agents get rid of their inherent human psychological vulnerabilities, I ask myself? By means of a (interpreted) measure?.... There's the fallacy! That number IS going to bias you or anyone for that matter, it creates a very strong bias and your ears+brain WILL search for confirmation of the numbers, the measure is the/a bias in the making.
The conclusion: 'X measures way better than Y' hence it's better to buy X , dude, really, how on earth isn't that a bias with corresponding psychological preconditioning? I'd rather call it augmented biasing. While the aim was to get rid of bias/psy-bs for once and for all by numbers and interpreting them, it just came back into your brain trough the back door, because you're still a human being. I would nearly call it an uncertainty principle, something inescapable. As in whatever principle is followed before actual listening, the last and inescapable filter IS the full of caveats psychological layer one, and only pretension might fool itself with the false belief to have beaten that last layer, in vain.

I really suppose Amir makes for a rigorous attempt when A/Bing stuff with methodology.
Can I please do stuff differently without being called names, ... or shittnon? You were not doing that here to me and I thank you for that.

 

[GuiltyRocker]

Guilty

Seems we agree on this.

Now we're here you might(?) help me with this idea/conviction I have:
Imho it's a fallacy to remotely suppose that measuring and interpreting a measure is free of creating a psychological biasing in it's very own right. I'd rather go in not knowing at all and just listen.
How do ASR fans/agents get rid of their inherent human psychological vulnerabilities, I ask myself? By means of a (interpreted) measure?.... There's the fallacy! That number IS going to bias you or anyone for that matter, it creates a very strong bias and your ears+brain WILL search for confirmation of the numbers, the measure is the/a bias in the making.
The conclusion: 'X measures way better than Y' hence it's better to buy X , dude, really, how on earth isn't that a bias with corresponding psychological preconditioning? I'd rather call it augmented biasing. While the aim was to get rid of bias/psy-bs for once and for all by numbers and interpreting them, it just came back into your brain trough the back door, because you're still a human being. I would nearly call it an uncertainty principle, something inescapable. As in whatever principle is followed before actual listening, the last and inescapable filter IS the full of caveats psychological layer one, and only pretension might fool itself with the false belief to have beaten that last layer, in vain.

I really suppose Amir makes for a rigorous attempt when A/Bing stuff with methodology.
Can I please do stuff differently without being called names, ... or shittnon? You were not doing that here to me and I thank you for that.

You're exactly correct, they are being conditioned by the measurements and also to believe that cheap Chi-Fi products are better than brands like dCS that have been doing this for a long time and know what they are doing. It is what it is, I don't go to that site as I find it distasteful and misleading.

 

[johnwillmclean]

Seems we agree on this.

Now we're here you might(?) help me with this idea/conviction I have:
Imho it's a fallacy to remotely suppose that measuring and interpreting a measure is free of creating a psychological biasing in it's very own right. I'd rather go in not knowing at all and just listen.
How do ASR fans/agents get rid of their inherent human psychological vulnerabilities, I ask myself? By means of a (interpreted) measure?.... There's the fallacy! That number IS going to bias you or anyone for that matter, it creates a very strong bias and your ears+brain WILL search for confirmation of the numbers, the measure is the/a bias in the making.
The conclusion: 'X measures way better than Y' hence it's better to buy X , dude, really, how on earth isn't that a bias with corresponding psychological preconditioning? I'd rather call it augmented biasing. While the aim was to get rid of bias/psy-bs for once and for all by numbers and interpreting them, it just came back into your brain trough the back door, because you're still a human being. I would nearly call it an uncertainty principle, something inescapable. As in whatever principle is followed before actual listening, the last and inescapable filter IS the full of caveats psychological layer one, and only pretension might fool itself with the false belief to have beaten that last layer, in vain.

I really suppose Amir makes for a rigorous attempt when A/Bing stuff with methodology.
Can I please do stuff differently without being called names, ... or shittnon? You were not doing that here to me and I thank you for that.

ASR aren’t alone in providing standardised audio measurements when reviewing. Take the m scaler, it was measured by two independent parties both found poor jitter performance.
That’s not biased phycological human perception, it’s raw affirmed data from 2 independent sources.
I’m pretty much aligned with ASRs general principles as there’s no reliable evidence to support the contrary. Unfortunately we don’t have the hearing capabilities of bats, as much as most audio companies would have us believe otherwise.
That aside, I still love my high end gear, my bad measuring Yggdrasil is still pride and place.

 

[griff500]

@johnwillmclean - what many take issue with is the assumption that a few measurements are all that matters. Just because you can’t hear something doesn’t mean the brain cannot be tricked into thinking it has been heard, not by marketing but by indicators in the sound.