[Bilavideo]

 

      Quote:

Originally Posted by Bilavideo /img/forum/go_quote.gif
 
...didn't the GS1000 have the benefit of all this special wire, all these special coats and all these special windings?  Yet, it gets consistently beaten at the lower end by the SR60 and then beaten at the higher end by the SR80!
 

 
We need CSDs. I'd wager that the waterfall plots of the GS1000 drivers look much better than the lower lines. As I said above, I've alway felt the GS1000 to be a little bit dirty sounding - even compared to HF-2. If you claimed you could make SR80s sound similar to GS1000s, I might even believe you. Heck, when the GS1000s came out, weren't people saying they were tweaked RS-2 drivers put in a big wooden shell?

OP, we have made progress!  One of the smartest Headfiers I know is on the verge of admitting we can get to the GS1000 - Grado's $1,000 former flagship and second banana to the PS1000!

 

[purrin]

 
Quote:

Ah, but that's what you did at post #54 when you selectively ran the SR60 against aluminum Grados!  At least I left a note!  I wanted to show you that the lowly SR60/SR80 beat the former Grado flagship - the GS1000 - in tests of total harmonic distortion, which is quite a feat for a plastic Grado, especially when that Grado lacked the benefit of jumbo pads, fancy voice coil wire, backplate damping, a metal rear screen (without a hard-plastic button in its center) and without ten feet of fancy cable.
 
That was a moment to cherish.  

I won't argue with you here because I as mentioned above, I can actually hear this. The GS1000 is dirty sounding. Keep in mind the limited data we are working with. The HD graphs are limited (500Hz tone). We need to see CSDs and HD graphs for other frequencies. 
 
In post #54, it wasn't done intentionally (I was trying to pick one from each series). Even if I included the RS1 instead of SR325, it would have looked similar.

 

[Bilavideo]

 

Quote:

Yes and no.  At the lower end of the spectrum, the 325 is more consistently the one with the lowest floor.  The RS1 doesn't establish dominance until you get into the treble.  And this is in spite of all the sandbags laid against this $300 headphone when doing battle with the $700 RS1.  The RS1 gets a mahogany front end, where the 325 starts out in plastic.  The RS1 gets some serious damping on the magnet back.  The RS1 doesn't have a plastic ring reflecting who-knows-what down near the rear grill, nor does it have a hard-plastic button stuck smack dab in the middle of the rear grill.  Given these obstacles, I'd say the aluminum 325 does fairly well.

 
My point was an argument against your hypothesis that the metal enclosure was largely responsible for the cleanliness of the HD graphs. Wood or metal doesn't have that much of an effect on HD.
 
Doesn't the SR325 also have the dynamat-like on it?
 

 
If metal has no effect on HD, it must be a miracle that the SR325 and the PS1000 have the lowest measurements of HD, considering that the one is a $300 Grado in the Prestige line and the other is the $1,700 top of the hill.  In the meantime, while the RS1 and RS2 fare well, the GS1000 (which has all of the benefits of being a "Big Grado") has significantly higher HD.  In the meantime, that oft-maligned SR325 has no dynamat on its back, has plastic housing (instead of aluminum or mahogany), has a plastic ring near the mouth of its rear grill, which itself is partially obstructed by a hard, plastic button in the center.  Honestly, I'm surprised it doesn't quack.

 

[purrin]

Quote:

OP, we have made progress!  One of the smartest Headfiers I know is on the verge of admitting we can get to the GS1000 - Grado's $1,000 former flagship and second banana to the PS1000!

LOL, my argument was very specific and never against the possibility of improvement: that you can't modify SR80s to sound like or have the detail level of SR325s.
 
On the GS1000s: for all we know, the GS1000s could very well be SR225 drivers with holes ripped out from back to increase bass, big woodies, and jumbo pads. This I could believe. I have suspicions about the GS1000, although I do like them.
 
Now, you are not going to convince me you can make PS1000s starting with SR125s. 

 

[Bilavideo]

Purrin, I am getting up now to grab another cream soda.  I shall drink to our friendship and the day we mod up a PS1000 out of an SR125.

 

[purrin]

--

 

[estreeter]

I know cabling is a contentious subject here, but reading markl's mod rundown for the Denon D2K made me wonder if something similar could be done to improve the lower-end Grados (recabling with the stock cable from a higher end model), or if it would just be a case of diminishing returns ? I like the idea that Lawton could change the character of the headphones with a thicker set of pads - I know that many have tried similar things with Grado phones but I've never ventured beyond the 414's and the bowls left me completely cold.
 
Please understand that I'm not trying to start a cable war - I have never had a set of headphones recabled, but thought this might be a good place to throw this into the mix.

 

[purrin]

Quote:

I know cabling is a contentious subject here, but reading markl's mod rundown for the Denon D2K made me wonder if something similar could be done to improve the lower-end Grados (recabling with the stock cable from a higher end model), or if it would just be a case of diminishing returns ? I like the idea that Lawton could change the character of the headphones with a thicker set of pads - I know that many have tried similar things with Grado phones but I've never ventured beyond the 414's and the bowls left me completely cold.
 
Please understand that I'm not trying to start a cable war - I have never had a set of headphones recabled, but thought this might be a good place to throw this into the mix.

To me it's a cost effectiveness issue. If you DIY, re-cabling the cheaper Grados is worth it. If you are going to do it, you might as well grab silver/teflon wires from eBay or some other place instead of the eight conductor Grado cable which is too thick and inflexible (unless you find someone giving the Grado cable away for cheap or for free.) If you don't DIY, you are better off going up a notch or two on the Grado ladder (of course this becomes much more difficult as you move up the range.) How much do re-cable jobs cost nowadays?  $300ish for 10ft?  In other words, you are better off getting an RS-2 instead of re-cabling SR80s.
 
In terms of pads, you can flip the 414s so the thicker side is on the ear (although it makes them look wierd) or use the TTVJ flats which are a bit thicker: http://www.ttvjaudio.com/index.php?main_page=product_info&cPath=9&products_id=54

 

[Bilavideo]

A number of $200 to $300 cables employ a four-wire braid of copper wire.  Some brag about the number of nines in their degree of purity (5, 6, even 7 nines deep) but standard copper wire is already 99.9% pure, with 100% conductivity.  In the meantime, the typical four-wire braid on these fancy cables can be between 21 and 27 awg (the higher the gauge, the thinner the cable).  The last thing I want to do is start a flame war over wire, but who needs a thick cable packed in fluff if the copper that's left is hair thin?
 
This is one instance where being a starving student could turn out to be a blessing in disguise.  For between $5 and $10, you can buy 50 feet of 18 awg copper wire.  This is enough to make 12 four-foot four-wire braids.  A few dollars more will buy you a connector.  A homemade cable like this is not exactly the height of fashion, though it's easy to sheath or cover the obvious.  The resulting weave, while substantial, would probably be a little more svelt than the typical "garden hose" while doubling, tripling or quadrupling the amount of actual copper wire.  A four-wire braid lets you split the ground wire.  The result is not a true "balanced" cable, since the grounds reconnect at the connector.  Still, to the extent that channel separation is hindered by having a common ground, this minimizes the length of wire involved.  The greater diameter of this low-gauge wire can reduce impedance anywhere from 50 to 88%.  
 
 

 

[Kevin Brown]

Bilavideo and purrin - You guys rock.  I am learning a lot just by reading your discussion.  I've never seen anyone analyze the graphs at Headphone.com like you two.  Big thumbs up for a civil yet entertaining and educational dialogue !!
 

 
I hate to say it, but I'm starting to think about picking up a used pair of SR60i's or 80's and ... experimenting !!

 

[purrin]

 
Quote:

A number of $200 to $300 cables employ a four-wire braid of copper wire ...
 

Teflon/plenum Cat5/6 cable - take advantage of the inherent twists - seriously - dirt cheap if you can get access in bulk. 
 

 

[Bilavideo]

 

Quote:

A number of $200 to $300 cables employ a four-wire braid of copper wire ...
 

Teflon/plenum Cat5/6 cable - take advantage of the inherent twists - seriously - dirt cheap if you can get access in bulk. 

Awesome idea!  I'm not affiliated with these guys or anything, but here is a link that will give you an idea of the prices for this sort of wiring choice: http://www.lanshack.com/Cat-5E-Plenum-Patch-Cable-C118.aspx

 

[dxps26]

 
Quote:

I am what a woodworker is thinking about when he laughs so hard he nearly falls off his chair.

 
This is completely Off-Topic, but Bill, I sincerely hope you are an English Teacher.
 
Your mastery of the Language is Sublime.

 

[ArmAndHammer]

So CAT5 cable is suitable to re-cable headphones with? I have about 100 feet of the stuff and was thinking about doing a re-cable at some point merely for aesthetic reasons. That would be great if I didn't have to buy new wire though I like the idea of silver so I can use thinner wire to get the same job done. I have no interest in changing the sound...just getting rid of this garden hose hanging off my neck.
 
Quote:

 
Quote:

A number of $200 to $300 cables employ a four-wire braid of copper wire ...
 

Teflon/plenum Cat5/6 cable - take advantage of the inherent twists - seriously - dirt cheap if you can get access in bulk. 
 

 

[Bilavideo]

 

Quote:

I am what a woodworker is thinking about when he laughs so hard he nearly falls off his chair.

 
This is completely Off-Topic, but Bill, I sincerely hope you are an English Teacher.
 
Your mastery of the Language is Sublime.

Thanks!  This year, they gave me four classes of English Language Arts - and I love it!  Thanks for making my day!