jcw122
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Sorry for the OT rant...lol
How do the DIY amps compare to the commercial ones?
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d-cee
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I think commercial builders can be cutting edge too
Like Jan Meier's balanced ground.
Like Jan Meier's balanced ground.
headphonejunkie
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I can't say much about cutting edge with DIY because I am not a designer/ engineer in this field. I do like the point made that if something breaks I can fix it. I hate having to be at someone elses mercy if my equipment breaks. Also, I can save a lot of money with DIY. As with anything else there is a mark up on commercial amps and if you look inside you have to wonder does these small amount of parts add up to the cost of the amp? A lot of times the answer will be NO. So, this way I can build it myself and save money in the long run. Who knows, When I get enough experience maybe I can design my own amp.
pabbi1
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I must take exception to the 'If you can build it, you can fix it' theory... so, IFF you take on something really complex, and, oh, say, short out six 2sk1968 transistors on a row of fifteen, and have no idea where to start, the hobby quickly becomes less fun. And, you wonder exectly how to recover a $1200 pile of parts, because there isn't much to be done with them then, except get help from somewhere.
Thank goodness this community is one big support group, BUT do not ever undertake something big / complex / expensive without a safety net.
Thank goodness this community is one big support group, BUT do not ever undertake something big / complex / expensive without a safety net.
headphonejunkie
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Take an ohmmeter and check each transistor out individually.You should be able to find your shorted components that way. Of course, to get to that point could take a while too. I am an electronic tech so it would probably be easier for me though.Someone that has very little electronic experience will have a harder time to troubleshoot their own amps. Eventually, if you keep it up you will learn.
pabbi1
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Oh, that was 6 months ago - it was just a cautionary tale. Luckily, I have a local friend much, MUCH better at troubleshooting than I.
dsavitsk
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Quote:
Maybe not cutting edge, but esoteric is certainly the realm of DIY. Cary has a 300B amp with a headphone jack, and EAR has their parafeed amp, but there are not a lot of options in the commercial world to explore these, and similar, topologies, and where there are, they are very conservatively designed. Some of this is that good OPTs are too expensive, some of it is that the useful tubes are too rare to make a viable commercial product, but a lot of it is that the market simply won't support it. So, DIY is the only option if this is your bag.
| Originally Posted by Tyll Hertsens /img/forum/go_quote.gif I don't know if I really agree with the "cutting edge" being the lone purview of DIYers. |
Maybe not cutting edge, but esoteric is certainly the realm of DIY. Cary has a 300B amp with a headphone jack, and EAR has their parafeed amp, but there are not a lot of options in the commercial world to explore these, and similar, topologies, and where there are, they are very conservatively designed. Some of this is that good OPTs are too expensive, some of it is that the useful tubes are too rare to make a viable commercial product, but a lot of it is that the market simply won't support it. So, DIY is the only option if this is your bag.
Roam
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On the tube side at least, the best cutting-edge designs in terms of both technical merit and sound are solely in the DIY domain. Commercially available tube amps are frankly just recycled trash, the same old 6SL7/6SN7/300B or 12AX7/12AU7/EL34 topologies over & over again, with slightly different parts values & audiophile approved brands. Every single amp is an RC or direct-coupled variation of the same basic circuits, a Cary isn't that different from an ASL or VTL. All the SET designs are grounded-cathode to cathode-follower to 300B, and the EL34 or KT88 amps are almost all variations of the Williamson or Dynaco circuits; gain, phase-split, driver, output, all RC and/or direct coupled.
It's only when one gets to the very fringes of commercial design that interesting things start to happen, Wavelength Audio for instance uses ultra-high transconductance tubes, parafeed and LC coupling in their SET designs. It's a much more technically sound solution and not surprisingly their amps sound far better than anything found in the commercial mainstream.
The DIY folks can take it a couple steps further with exotic high performance CCS designs and power supplies designed around TV damper diodes and film & oil capacitors along with voltage regulation using compensated VR tubes. In P-P designs we can implement grid neutralization to improve bandwidth along with the Western Electric "harmonic equalizer" to lower odd-order distortion products, the latter is something one will not find in any commercially available design. With tubes, the commercial mainstream has around 50 years of catching up to do.
It's only when one gets to the very fringes of commercial design that interesting things start to happen, Wavelength Audio for instance uses ultra-high transconductance tubes, parafeed and LC coupling in their SET designs. It's a much more technically sound solution and not surprisingly their amps sound far better than anything found in the commercial mainstream.
The DIY folks can take it a couple steps further with exotic high performance CCS designs and power supplies designed around TV damper diodes and film & oil capacitors along with voltage regulation using compensated VR tubes. In P-P designs we can implement grid neutralization to improve bandwidth along with the Western Electric "harmonic equalizer" to lower odd-order distortion products, the latter is something one will not find in any commercially available design. With tubes, the commercial mainstream has around 50 years of catching up to do.
balou
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Tyll, that was quite an interesting post from a commercial amp manufacturer. It's reassuring me that DIY is the way to go - while others will clearly buy stuff from you after reading this
Every approach has it's benefits - and for me it's clearly the DIY approach, because I really want to know what's going on in my amp.
Every approach has it's benefits - and for me it's clearly the DIY approach, because I really want to know what's going on in my amp.
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Great comments!
I think it might be worth noting at this point that DIY is rather a large topic area all on its own. To build a Cmoy doesn't take too much electronics experience other than knowing how to drill a few holes and wield a soldering iron. But designing gear something like AMB, Tanget, or Morsel does requires technical expertice that few DIY builders posess. Ti's Beta 22 design clearly rises to the level of "World Class" amplification, and it would be far beyond most peoples ability to troublshoot one properly if it broke.
So, even in DIY, it's worth highlighting the fact that there are DIYers who just know how to solder, some that can trouble shoot simply (ohming stuff out till they find the problems), those that are real technicians (who can trouble shoot with an o'scope and schematic), those that can do some simple designing (knows to lay out componants around op-amps), those that can do real electrical engineering (bias descrete transistors and/or tubes in various topologies), and those that can do real esoteric designs (far more complex than I can fit between these parethesis).
But that's the great thing about DIY, it's an activity with a broad spectrum of opportunities to learn. Start simple as a kid in middle school, and work your way up to really designing electronic circuits, and you could find yourself old, gray, and with a satisfied grin on your face because you've had a lifetime hobby of good clean fun.
I am very greatfull to have Joe W. on staff who is an outstanding audio engineer, and who has the technical chops to both make subtle design and performance improvements in a Jung Diamond Buffer circuit, and to balance all the factors needed to build a commercially viable amp. But you're right the he, Jamey, and I don't really spend our time pushing the cutting edge. For us it's more about delivering as much amp as we can at a variety of price points, and with a variety of features, all the while ensuring that the gear is rock solid reliable. In many ways, that's just as difficult as designing a bleeding edge amp. To get ultimate performance is complex and time consuming work, but to get performance at five different pricepoints is difficult and time consuming as well.
But I think it is fair to say that commercial amps are likely to be somewhat conservative designs, and that the real esoteric stuff does appear from DIY. But the great designs come from a very small group of DIYers: Ti, Pete Millett, Kevin Gilmore, etc. But these designs do end up in some commercial amps; Gilmores designs at HeadAmp for example. We've taken a DIY design and turned it into a commercial product---the Millett Hybrid---and we'll probably do so again as intreaging designs show up.
Someone mentioned the Cary 300SEI, I love this amp, but Pete Millett told me that the really good stuff is to be found elsewhere. The European Triode Festival is one such place. Last year a few of these guys actually made their own tubes! I'm actually going to be attending this year as Pete and I consider the future of tube gear at HeadRoom. I guess I believe that great designs are great designs, and if a design is stable and well behaved it can be made into a commercial product.
I think it might be worth noting at this point that DIY is rather a large topic area all on its own. To build a Cmoy doesn't take too much electronics experience other than knowing how to drill a few holes and wield a soldering iron. But designing gear something like AMB, Tanget, or Morsel does requires technical expertice that few DIY builders posess. Ti's Beta 22 design clearly rises to the level of "World Class" amplification, and it would be far beyond most peoples ability to troublshoot one properly if it broke.
So, even in DIY, it's worth highlighting the fact that there are DIYers who just know how to solder, some that can trouble shoot simply (ohming stuff out till they find the problems), those that are real technicians (who can trouble shoot with an o'scope and schematic), those that can do some simple designing (knows to lay out componants around op-amps), those that can do real electrical engineering (bias descrete transistors and/or tubes in various topologies), and those that can do real esoteric designs (far more complex than I can fit between these parethesis).
But that's the great thing about DIY, it's an activity with a broad spectrum of opportunities to learn. Start simple as a kid in middle school, and work your way up to really designing electronic circuits, and you could find yourself old, gray, and with a satisfied grin on your face because you've had a lifetime hobby of good clean fun.
I am very greatfull to have Joe W. on staff who is an outstanding audio engineer, and who has the technical chops to both make subtle design and performance improvements in a Jung Diamond Buffer circuit, and to balance all the factors needed to build a commercially viable amp. But you're right the he, Jamey, and I don't really spend our time pushing the cutting edge. For us it's more about delivering as much amp as we can at a variety of price points, and with a variety of features, all the while ensuring that the gear is rock solid reliable. In many ways, that's just as difficult as designing a bleeding edge amp. To get ultimate performance is complex and time consuming work, but to get performance at five different pricepoints is difficult and time consuming as well.
But I think it is fair to say that commercial amps are likely to be somewhat conservative designs, and that the real esoteric stuff does appear from DIY. But the great designs come from a very small group of DIYers: Ti, Pete Millett, Kevin Gilmore, etc. But these designs do end up in some commercial amps; Gilmores designs at HeadAmp for example. We've taken a DIY design and turned it into a commercial product---the Millett Hybrid---and we'll probably do so again as intreaging designs show up.
Someone mentioned the Cary 300SEI, I love this amp, but Pete Millett told me that the really good stuff is to be found elsewhere. The European Triode Festival is one such place. Last year a few of these guys actually made their own tubes! I'm actually going to be attending this year as Pete and I consider the future of tube gear at HeadRoom. I guess I believe that great designs are great designs, and if a design is stable and well behaved it can be made into a commercial product.
tomb
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"Esoteric?" I don't agree with the definition in this context.
from Dictionary.com:
"1. understood by or meant for only the select few who have special knowledge or interest; recondite: poetry full of esoteric allusions.
2. belonging to the select few.
3. private; secret; confidential.
4. (of a philosophical doctrine or the like) intended to be revealed only to the initiates of a group: the esoteric doctrines of Pythagoras."
Whereas for "cutting edge":
n.
An effective quality or element.
The position of greatest advancement or importance; the forefront
One implies that the design is confidential, which is anathema to the DIY culture. The other implies the goal of most DIY designs: the position of greatest advancement in specific, well-defined categories. These categories may be focused on any of a number of specific design goals: pure measured performance (Beta 22), best monolithic IC approach (PIMETA), best monolithic-discrete combo (M3, PPA), most advanced in a fan favorite (Millett Max), smallest portable with an easy build (Mini3 V2). These are just some examples and many of you may or may not agree with them.
However, it seems to me self-evident that the goal of most DIY designs is to achieve the greatest advancement within a limited, specific design category.
The difference from commercial designs is that commercial mfrs cannot limit themselves to a specific category of advancement. The ever-present requirement of reliability, robustness, mfr'ng ability, support issues, marketing, etc. - must all be considered. As Tyll suggests, "But I think it is fair to say that commercial amps are likely to be somewhat conservative designs, and that the real esoteric stuff does appear from DIY."
A commercial product has a different level of expectation of quality, reliability, support and investment. By implication, that tends to make them more conservative. Whereas the DIY design need not concern itself with many aspects of the complete product: casework, feature set, power supply, owner's manual, etc., etc.
Sorry for using the buzz-phrase "cutting edge." I realize that in many circles it is used as a marketing tool and reputation enhancement. However, I disagree with the use of "esoteric", too.
from Dictionary.com:
"1. understood by or meant for only the select few who have special knowledge or interest; recondite: poetry full of esoteric allusions.
2. belonging to the select few.
3. private; secret; confidential.
4. (of a philosophical doctrine or the like) intended to be revealed only to the initiates of a group: the esoteric doctrines of Pythagoras."
Whereas for "cutting edge":
n.
An effective quality or element.
The position of greatest advancement or importance; the forefront
One implies that the design is confidential, which is anathema to the DIY culture. The other implies the goal of most DIY designs: the position of greatest advancement in specific, well-defined categories. These categories may be focused on any of a number of specific design goals: pure measured performance (Beta 22), best monolithic IC approach (PIMETA), best monolithic-discrete combo (M3, PPA), most advanced in a fan favorite (Millett Max), smallest portable with an easy build (Mini3 V2). These are just some examples and many of you may or may not agree with them.
However, it seems to me self-evident that the goal of most DIY designs is to achieve the greatest advancement within a limited, specific design category.
The difference from commercial designs is that commercial mfrs cannot limit themselves to a specific category of advancement. The ever-present requirement of reliability, robustness, mfr'ng ability, support issues, marketing, etc. - must all be considered. As Tyll suggests, "But I think it is fair to say that commercial amps are likely to be somewhat conservative designs, and that the real esoteric stuff does appear from DIY."
A commercial product has a different level of expectation of quality, reliability, support and investment. By implication, that tends to make them more conservative. Whereas the DIY design need not concern itself with many aspects of the complete product: casework, feature set, power supply, owner's manual, etc., etc.
Sorry for using the buzz-phrase "cutting edge." I realize that in many circles it is used as a marketing tool and reputation enhancement. However, I disagree with the use of "esoteric", too.
jesse_w
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To me it is clear that a 'comparable' commercial amp is going to cost more -- especially for professional casework and whoever is getting paid for the design. Dollar for dollar, only on parts and maybe some basic casework, DIY amps are better than commercial amps, but this ignores alot of money in tools, and alot you can spend on case work, and the HUUUUGE amount of personal time invested.
I think my maxed pimeta for which I spent generously on parts, casework and power supply (I'm well over 250$ canadian, probably with more to come, but some of that includes things like wiring that will span multiple projects) performs far better than all commercial amps I've heard (which don't need naming, but are all much more expensive). That said, if I include tool costs and the amount of time I put in (learning, researching, and building) at, say, my hourly wage--we're talking RSA raptor territory, if not more. For one little pimeta. Now I haven't heard a Raptor, but I can guess that my pimeta probably isn't up to the challenge, and I can tell you for sure that my workmanship isn't on the level of Ray's beautiful work.
To me the moral of the story is DIY is not a cheap way out if you don't enjoy it. It looks appealing that what amounts to 200$ in parts amp can compete with 500$+ amps, but thats a really misleading number. If you enjoy building and fixing things, build an amp! Its tons of fun. If the building and fixing doesn't appeal to you--its not a cheap way out.
jesse
I think my maxed pimeta for which I spent generously on parts, casework and power supply (I'm well over 250$ canadian, probably with more to come, but some of that includes things like wiring that will span multiple projects) performs far better than all commercial amps I've heard (which don't need naming, but are all much more expensive). That said, if I include tool costs and the amount of time I put in (learning, researching, and building) at, say, my hourly wage--we're talking RSA raptor territory, if not more. For one little pimeta. Now I haven't heard a Raptor, but I can guess that my pimeta probably isn't up to the challenge, and I can tell you for sure that my workmanship isn't on the level of Ray's beautiful work.
To me the moral of the story is DIY is not a cheap way out if you don't enjoy it. It looks appealing that what amounts to 200$ in parts amp can compete with 500$+ amps, but thats a really misleading number. If you enjoy building and fixing things, build an amp! Its tons of fun. If the building and fixing doesn't appeal to you--its not a cheap way out.
jesse
d-cee
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Quote:
no truer words have been spoken
| Originally Posted by jesse_w /img/forum/go_quote.gif To me the moral of the story is DIY is not a cheap way out if you don't enjoy it. It looks appealing that what amounts to 200$ in parts amp can compete with 500$+ amps, but thats a really misleading number. If you enjoy building and fixing things, build an amp! Its tons of fun. If the building and fixing doesn't appeal to you--its not a cheap way out. |
no truer words have been spoken
FallenAngel
Headphoneus Supremus
Quote:
DIY is definitely not "cheap", and most people forget one simple fact. If it doesn't work, you mess up and need extra parts, there is noise in the circuit, or a ton of other things that can go wrong, you're looking at that DIY budget going up very quickly. If of course, you build "perfect" amps without any mistakes, sure it makes sense to think it would be generally cheaper, but not all are so lucky with their builds and most spend more than the initial parts budget to pay for those mistakes making their builds quite expensive, and randing into commercial-price territory.
| Originally Posted by jesse_w /img/forum/go_quote.gif To me the moral of the story is DIY is not a cheap way out if you don't enjoy it. It looks appealing that what amounts to 200$ in parts amp can compete with 500$+ amps, but thats a really misleading number. If you enjoy building and fixing things, build an amp! Its tons of fun. If the building and fixing doesn't appeal to you--its not a cheap way out. jesse |
DIY is definitely not "cheap", and most people forget one simple fact. If it doesn't work, you mess up and need extra parts, there is noise in the circuit, or a ton of other things that can go wrong, you're looking at that DIY budget going up very quickly. If of course, you build "perfect" amps without any mistakes, sure it makes sense to think it would be generally cheaper, but not all are so lucky with their builds and most spend more than the initial parts budget to pay for those mistakes making their builds quite expensive, and randing into commercial-price territory.
n_maher
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Quote:
I'm sorry, but that's just not true or at least mostly not true. What I would say is that generally speaking the raw parts costs don't play any larger role in the price of a commercial product than any other factor like labor, warranty, tech support, etc. So while in direct comparison a commercial manufacturer might pay less than you or I for a resistor/cap/whatever it is only a fraction of what it costs that manufacturer to produce the product.
As I tried to say in my previous post comparing a DIY amp to a commercial amp purely on a "parts cost" basis is seriously unfair. In DIY we almost never pay anything for development costs which can be huge. What if all of a sudden amb or tangent decided to charge you for all of their failed attempts (like the V1 mini³ or PINT) when they brought a working amp to market? Commercial manufacturers have to account for this cost since they don't have the luxury of writing off what they do as a hobby. We also don't pay the folks much if anything for distributing the goods. Someone want to guess how much time cetoole is going to spend packing and shipping the 400+ pcbs that were a part of the recent Millett group buy? Then there's the website that tomb designed for free (which is seriously nice!), the time spent assembling a BOM, etc. etc. If DIY folks had to pay for any of these services it'd quickly become apparent just how small the margins are for commercial electronics manufacturers and how great some of the deals are out there. A Total Bithead for $150, holy jebus!
| Originally Posted by FallenAngel /img/forum/go_quote.gif ...so if parts cost less for them, they can easily offer the product at a similar price as DIY. |
I'm sorry, but that's just not true or at least mostly not true. What I would say is that generally speaking the raw parts costs don't play any larger role in the price of a commercial product than any other factor like labor, warranty, tech support, etc. So while in direct comparison a commercial manufacturer might pay less than you or I for a resistor/cap/whatever it is only a fraction of what it costs that manufacturer to produce the product.
As I tried to say in my previous post comparing a DIY amp to a commercial amp purely on a "parts cost" basis is seriously unfair. In DIY we almost never pay anything for development costs which can be huge. What if all of a sudden amb or tangent decided to charge you for all of their failed attempts (like the V1 mini³ or PINT) when they brought a working amp to market? Commercial manufacturers have to account for this cost since they don't have the luxury of writing off what they do as a hobby. We also don't pay the folks much if anything for distributing the goods. Someone want to guess how much time cetoole is going to spend packing and shipping the 400+ pcbs that were a part of the recent Millett group buy? Then there's the website that tomb designed for free (which is seriously nice!), the time spent assembling a BOM, etc. etc. If DIY folks had to pay for any of these services it'd quickly become apparent just how small the margins are for commercial electronics manufacturers and how great some of the deals are out there. A Total Bithead for $150, holy jebus!
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