[castleofargh]

I also feel the same way, I would definitely be buying a 3rd party cable on size, resistance to microphonics, material and durability.


Good Lord.. this is a clearly biased story. I hate to be this way but, I guarantee if someone got both cables and put a black blanket over both cables connected to an A/B switcher, as long as both stock cables were of similar specs you would struggle to notice the difference. It even has the same audiophile insecurity that they have to always be right, never debating to learn but only to try to win.

Your mind is already made up the moment you unplug the cable with the mobile controls. You want to hear what you see. Your brain is already biased towards the cable that does not have the controls.

It's just baffling to see your own brain fool itself.

it could certainly look like a textbook case of suggestibility. but without measurements of anything, it is just as bad to claim it's all nocebo. we don't know that.

 

[JaeYoon]

it could certainly look like a textbook case of suggestibility. but without measurements of anything, it is just as bad to claim it's all nocebo. we don't know that.

Then let's find someone who has both stock cables and the PM-3 headphone and borrow their equipment for measurements. Non-violently, of course just to borrow their equipment.

 

[gregorio]

I don’t care if you believe me or not. I don’t care if you’re skeptical of my story. It happened. It’s true. Get over it .... Both cables were stock cables for the Oppo PM3.

I'll ask you again, were both stock CABLES or was one a stock cable and the other an also supplied cable with a bunch of circuitry in the middle of it? if it was the former, then that's quite different to your original story and if it's the latter then you were not comparing two stock CABLES and your conclusion is invalid and rater bizarre!

Why am I here? To share a true, unbiased, story with you all.

Why would you want to share a story with us? This is not the "Share a Story" forum and your story which has nothing to do with this thread anyway? Your story was about comparing a cable with a bunch of smartphone circuitry, this thread is about differences (or the lack of them) BETWEEN CABLES.

G

 

[bigshot]

I find it interesting that all the reports of cables sounding different come from comparisons in stereo stores conducted by salesmen. I have seen commissioned stereo salesmen try to be my friend too. And I’ve caught them adjusting controls behind their back to try to skew the results of my in store comparisons. You don’t hand the keys to the henhouse to “friend fox”.

 

[bigshot]

Then let's find someone who has both stock cables and the PM-3 headphone and borrow their equipment for measurements. Non-violently, of course just to borrow their equipment.

I have PM1s. They came with a fancy cloth covered cable and a small cheap short one to use with a phone in your pocket. They sound identical.

 

[bigshot]

What I'm trying to say is that there were perceptible differences even though I was adamant there would be none.

I’ll bet you five bucks that your friend was a salesman and he had slightly altered the volume level of the sources to make on cable a little louder. I’ll bet another five bucks that the one he boosted was the one he got the best commission on.

 

[castleofargh]

I’ll bet you five bucks that your friend was a salesman and he had slightly altered the volume level of the sources to make on cable a little louder. I’ll bet another five bucks that the one he boosted was the one he got the best commission on.

with IEMs it can be real easy to make an audible difference just with a small change in the cable's impedance. so all you really need is to pick the right IEM to magnify source variations, and some really low impedance cable. then maybe one other cable with 2 or 3ohm impedance(not that rare), and you'll get a change very easy to notice. some multidriver IEMs have impedance variations so wild and reaching so low that even rather small impedance changes from the cable(or the DAP of course), can really change the response by several dB in selected areas. I've measured as low at 6ohm myself in IEMs, with fluctuations easily reaching 10 times that at a given frequency. and there is lower.
of course as the main variation in this case is FR(if the amp can handle such a small load), the notion of good vs bad cable takes a subjective life of it own with such IEMs. not much to do with respecting electrical specs dictated by standards as IEMs theses days piss all over standards and the principle of impedance bridging between the amp and the transducers. which is exactly why a small change even from cables can result in significant change in the FR of the IEM.
no big mystery there. reject standards, then be amazed that rules based on standards don't work ^_^.

 

[JaeYoon]

with IEMs it can be real easy to make an audible difference just with a small change in the cable's impedance. so all you really need is to pick the right IEM to magnify source variations, and some really low impedance cable. then maybe one other cable with 2 or 3ohm impedance(not that rare), and you'll get a change very easy to notice. some multidriver IEMs have impedance variations so wild and reaching so low that even rather small impedance changes from the cable(or the DAP of course), can really change the response by several dB in selected areas. I've measured as low at 6ohm myself, with fluctuations easily reaching 10 times that at a given frequency. and there is lower worse.
of course as the main variation in this case is FR(if the amp can handle such a small load), the notion of good vs bad cable takes a subjective life of it own with such IEMs. not much to do with respecting electrical specs dictated by standards as IEMs theses days piss all over standards and the principle of impedance bridging between the amp and the transducers. which is exactly why a small change even from cables can result in significant change in the FR of the IEM.
no big mystery there. reject standards, then be amazed that rules based on standards don't work ^_^.

Thanks for the information.
That's actually worrying too. I can start to understand why so many in IEM community and ones in $2000+ with multiple drivers have so many people buying and selling different cables.

Different frequencies can easily be all over place since many iems tend to have very funny specs. Like for instance this multi driver iem has
Impedance: 10 Ω @ 1kHz
10 ohms.
People posting reviews have been plugging different audiophile cables that have no standards and getting different perceptions due to their variations.

 

[BlueFan]

I beg to differ.

 

[sonitus mirus]

What cracks me up is how the supposed audible differences are being described as being attributed to changes in cables. Did anyone mention a fuller sound yet? How about more musical? I love that one...musical. Probably adding a few more strands of silver makes the sound more musical. The hell with math.

 

[Whazzzup]

 

[Maxx134]

because there is a lot that depends on the

I agree that there is alot variables that depends on the outcome what is heard.

maybe there is something to discuss. like what to measure, what are the nominal specs for a specific cable under a specific use, etc.

I am of belief that the complexity and sensitivity of the human ear can be trained to hear more variables than we currently are focused on in the measurement areas.

as for my warning about sighted test, the problem of sighted listening is that we can't know when we're right and when our brain is full of crap. there is no way with such experience to confirm the real answer, or that our feeling is actually coming from sound

This is true many circumstances but in reality when a person isn't "thinking" so hard, they can perceive more naturally sounds of recognition and perceptions, like where they are and familiar voices or sounds and such, like if they know how an instrument sounds in real life.

Their is another aspect or field that takes things with certainty.
The Audio Engineer must be certain about "how things sound" when he is mixing on the board, or placing the microphones position for best perceived sound.

The musician "must" know his keys if he is out of tune, or his/her timing when playing notes, and how to give the instrument "emotion".

These things are based on certainty.
You have to be certain in these fields where your income and livelihood and career is at stake.

I think these thread topics can very well help users understand the many many variables, but there is a also an "evil" stigma going on that causes doubt in a person's mind.

This is where the mind starts playing tricks on you if your "not sure".
I hate to see members uncertain or scared to give their own opinions.

We need sound-science to be a belt of wealth and knowledge to the member, and not cause them to be uncertain of their own perceptions.
They should know how much other aspects like the eyes and other senses add (help) to the experience, and accept all these things to relax and enjoy and not be worried about what they hear.

Search it for the word cables and you'll have a mountain of evidence

There is the "cable company" which you can rent out cables to see how they "interact" with you, & your setup.

Since we do not listen to music by using any type of "blind-testing", we should use cables normally and accept all the variables that will take into account to give whatever end result.

I understand Keeping the "open mind" is hard and key, and I think there is a level of compromise to accept, like visual difference or price,
But if you are truthful to yourself and realize these things are there to try to bias you, then you already are prepared (to an extent) to not let that happen.

In many cases when I ask another member what they heard, they often describe another view and aspect which adds to the impression and experience that I myself may have not noticed or overlooked, like mentioning an "ambience cue" or "aspect of an instrument" or other sounds that I did not pick out until they pointed it out.

Aspects of perception that other members pickup is a good thing, and may be a result of expecting differences.

This is the Sound Science sub-forum. If you aren't prepared to consider that you might be wrong about your beliefs in the differences between your headphone cables, why are you here? There are other areas of Head-Fi where you will find like-minded people who will validate your beliefs.

I believe the sound-science forum is instrumental to knowing the many variables that can take place when your mind is interpretating all the information from the ears.
I only whish it more focused members with certainty for dececiphering, instead of getting tied down with the specific issues of what your hearing or not hearing.

I think different cable helps us perceive the music differently, and as to why because it may not technically make a difference (theoretically) in a simplistic view, when it does.

Wire is not perfect or uniform.
In an electrician field, wire can heat up in spots and break in other spots and corrode in other circumstances.

So the "real world" usage is not what's on paper.
So similarly also in a micro-level there must be variables going on.
Why does a cable manufacturer choose a specific winding or different materials aside from the insulation type, like cloth and such.
Many reasons are like another field in itself and the end result cannot be same performance on a micro level.
How that translates to the user is why we need sound-science to help understand, instead of going off on a "tangent" to focus on tearing down a member's perceptions that even if may be skewed, they still need as a foundation for "certainty".

My view is that a member must use all his/her audible "tools" they have to be certain, not uncertain.

They just need to realise alot goes into play, (even placibo) at determining their outcome.
This "self-aself-awarness" will keep them more grounded.

And the outcome... Was a surprise to me. There was indeed a difference between cables. Whether copper or silver, even the number of strands made a difference

Especially when your brain is expecting a difference, you will find one.

But if you didn't know the cable was swapped you may not notice right away, as your mind would probably fill in any differences as just a different "feeling", and can explain why some users feel more certain with long term listening, or owning a product for a few weeks to be sure, untill the "new toy" syndrome wears off..

 

[bfreedma]

I agree that there is alot variables that depends on the outcome what is heard.


I am of belief that the complexity and sensitivity of the human ear can be trained to hear more variables than we currently are focused on in the measurement areas.



This is true many circumstances but in reality when a person isn't "thinking" so hard, they can perceive more naturally sounds of recognition and perceptions, like where they are and familiar voices or sounds and such, like if they know how an instrument sounds in real life.

Their is another aspect or field that takes things with certainty.
The Audio Engineer must be certain about "how things sound" when he is mixing on the board, or placing the microphones position for best perceived sound.

The musician "must" know his keys if he is out of tune, or his/her timing when playing notes, and how to give the instrument "emotion".

These things are based on certainty.
You have to be certain in these fields where your income and livelihood and career is at stake.

I think these thread topics can very well help users understand the many many variables, but there is a also an "evil" stigma going on that causes doubt in a person's mind.

This is where the mind starts playing tricks on you if your "not sure".
I hate to see members uncertain or scared to give their own opinions.

We need sound-science to be a belt of wealth and knowledge to the member, and not cause them to be uncertain of their own perceptions.
They should know how much other aspects like the eyes and other senses add (help) to the experience, and accept all these things to relax and enjoy and not be worried about what they hear.


There is the "cable company" which you can rent out cables to see how they "interact" with you, & your setup.

Since we do not listen to music by using any type of "blind-testing", we should use cables normally and accept all the variables that will take into account to give whatever end result.

I understand Keeping the "open mind" is hard and key, and I think there is a level of compromise to accept, like visual difference or price,
But if you are truthful to yourself and realize these things are there to try to bias you, then you already are prepared (to an extent) to not let that happen.

In many cases when I ask another member what they heard, they often describe another view and aspect which adds to the impression and experience that I myself may have not noticed or overlooked, like mentioning an "ambience cue" or "aspect of an instrument" or other sounds that I did not pick out until they pointed it out.

Aspects of perception that other members pickup is a good thing, and may be a result of expecting differences.


I believe the sound-science forum is instrumental to knowing the many variables that can take place when your mind is interpretating all the information from the ears.
I only whish it more focused members with certainty for dececiphering, instead of getting tied down with the specific issues of what your hearing or not hearing.

I think different cable helps us perceive the music differently, and as to why because it may not technically make a difference (theoretically) in a simplistic view, when it does.

Wire is not perfect or uniform.
In an electrician field, wire can heat up in spots and break in other spots and corrode in other circumstances.

So the "real world" usage is not what's on paper.
So similarly also in a micro-level there must be variables going on.
Why does a cable manufacturer choose a specific winding or different materials aside from the insulation type, like cloth and such.
Many reasons are like another field in itself and the end result cannot be same performance on a micro level.
How that translates to the user is why we need sound-science to help understand, instead of going off on a "tangent" to focus on tearing down a member's perceptions that even if may be skewed, they still need as a foundation for "certainty".

My view is that a member must use all his/her audible "tools" they have to be certain, not uncertain.

They just need to realise alot goes into play, (even placibo) at determining their outcome.
This "self-aself-awarness" will keep them more grounded.



Especially when your brain is expecting a difference, you will find one.

But if you didn't know the cable was swapped you may not notice right away, as your mind would probably fill in any differences as just a different "feeling", and can explain why some users feel more certain with long term listening, or owning a product for a few weeks to be sure, untill the "new toy" syndrome wears off..

So many anecdotes and repetition of marketing hype. No supporting evidence of audiblity.

Are we really going down this rat hole again in Sound Science? Isn't there a separate Cables forum for that?

 

[Quasimodosbelfry]

I’ll bet you five bucks that your friend was a salesman and he had slightly altered the volume level of the sources to make on cable a little louder. I’ll bet another five bucks that the one he boosted was the one he got the best commission on.

You owe me 10 bucks.

He wasn't a salesman. And it was my own player in my own hand.

How hard do you want to disprove this?

 

[sonitus mirus]

You owe me 10 bucks.

He wasn't a salesman. And it was my own player in my own hand.

How hard do you want to disprove this?

There is exactly nothing provided by your story to disprove. The cables were either defective, improper for the intended application, or any audible differences were only perceived and not real. What else would you attribute to the differences you claim to have heard?