[TheSonicTruth]

That’s why opinions are like ___holes! Everybody has one.

Just the very act of picking up those $500 cables, bringing them home and switching out those $5 Radio Shacks for them can convince you the more expensive ones sound 'better', or at least different. I've experienced that, but have long since matured when it comes to the matter of audio interconnects, both analog and digital. Oh! I see you're from Texas!

 

[TheSonicTruth]

1. That's nothing. That's commonplace.
2. The more people believe in snakeoil the more there are snakeoil sellers. Unless you are very rich, you have better use for your money than snakeoil cables. The benefits of for example acoustic treatment are real and still people invest more money into snakeoil cables.
3. Well if you want snakeoil cables for whatever myriad reason and are willing to pay for them then be my guest, but don't tell others you got them for better sound. You got them for myriad reasons, period.
4. We naysayers are not debunking your happiness*. We are debunking the sonic superiority of snakeoil cables. That's the scientific part of this all. The signal doesn't know the price of the cable. The signal doesn't care if the cable was sold by a snakeoil seller. All it cares about is the electromagnetic properties of the cable and proper affordable cables fulfill those requirements, and at audio frequencies 0-20 kHz those requirements aren't that challenging. That's why you can be happy using cheap (but technically proper) cables.

* This is off topic here, but since you mentioned happiness as a reason for owning snakeoil cables I say this: Materialism isn't generally the best way to reach happiness. It's a way to fool yourself into thinking you are happy, an easy way to have short happy periods in life. Real, continuous happiness is more difficult and comes from unexpected sources such as helping other people and intellectual enrichment.

I think people like Cookie need to read up on marketing psychology. Both the product maker and the consumer play roles in how the product maker is able to convince the consumer that I.E. that $300 Beats headphone is somehow more beneficial to them, and the consumer, without doing any basic research, is is convinced by the hype and becomes willing to buy them, when superior sounding headphones can be had for $half - or less - that money and don't need batteries, even for the wired ones, to work properly.

 

[Kyndcookie]

Just the very act of picking up those $500 cables, bringing them home and switching out those $5 Radio Shacks for them can convince you the more expensive ones sound 'better', or at least different. I've experienced that, but have long since matured when it comes to the matter of audio interconnects, both analog and digital. Oh! I see you're from Texas!

I love this. This is the typical response boiled down, isn’t it? I’m actually not arguing the technical points or the psychology. That’s not the purpose of my response to the OP. There was a flurry of response to to my post last night, and there’s no need to reply to them all. This one is sufficient.

Everyone has been so eager to reinforce their position that no one even addressed my initial point, which was why is it necessary to to TRY to convince people about cables? These endless threads on the topic are like politics. So what if there is science behind naysayers? That’s not the point. And so what if people enjoy beautiful, well built cables which sound the same or worse than your $10 miracle wire? That’s not the point, either. I don’t personally care, one way or another.

The most telling thing is that the above post goes from trying to mansplain the placebo effect to insulting my intelligence based on the state I live in. This is not surprising. People get so pissy when others don’t share not just their opinion, but share it in the exact same way. It’s an American tradition these days. Not once did I say the science wasn’t there. Just that I think it’s silly to try to convince people, when they clearly don’t want to be convinced. The myriad approaches to explaining to me how wrong I am above assumes I don’t agree, when in reality I do agree, but simply don’t care. I know I’m not the only one who sees things this way. Feel free to pity me not living in the same head space as you, but try not to be insulting about it. It doesn’t make the community look good.

 

[TheSonicTruth]

I love this. This is the typical response boiled down, isn’t it? I’m actually not arguing the technical points or the psychology. That’s not the purpose of my response to the OP. There was a flurry of response to to my post last night, and there’s no need to reply to them all. This one is sufficient.

Everyone has been so eager to reinforce their position that no one even addressed my initial point, which was why is it necessary to to TRY to convince people about cables? These endless threads on the topic are like politics. So what if there is science behind naysayers? That’s not the point. And so what if people enjoy beautiful, well built cables which sound the same or worse than your $10 miracle wire? That’s not the point, either. I don’t personally care, one way or another.

The most telling thing is that the above post goes from trying to mansplain the placebo effect to insulting my intelligence based on the state I live in. This is not surprising. People get so pissy when others don’t share not just their opinion, but share it in the exact same way. It’s an American tradition these days. Not once did I say the science wasn’t there. Just that I think it’s silly to try to convince people, when they clearly don’t want to be convinced. The myriad approaches to explaining to me how wrong I am above assumes I don’t agree, when in reality I do agree, but simply don’t care. I know I’m not the only one who sees things this way. Feel free to pity me not living in the same head space as you, but try not to be insulting about it. It doesn’t make the community look good.

Well, maybe not you but many Texans tend to be the rallying type: "Denim cables rule!!, Denim cables rule!!" or, "Make Analog Great Again!" lol!

From your reply: "I don’t personally care, one way or another."

That's the problem right there! "I" "don't" "care". Three words most deadly in combination.

And not just with audio - but with everything going on lately in this country. Don't care? Then reap the consequences of 'not caring'.

 

[71 dB]

Just that I think it’s silly to try to convince people, when they clearly don’t want to be convinced.

Nobody is forced to read these posts or even come to this discussion board. I post what I want and you can choose to read it or ignore it. If you don't want to be educated that's your problem.

 

[Kyndcookie]

These threads aren’t about education any more. Sure, there is the occasional newbie looking for validation or even actual, hard science, but it’s not like it happens all
time, relative to threads like these, at least. They appear to be bully pulpits over pretty much inconsequential things. And, more importantly, I could certainly ignore the comments or thread entirely, but then why does the forum even exist, if not to spark conversation? It’s like people want to have an opinion, post it, and not expect some sort of response? And the dismissive nastiness, the condescension, the stubborn non-acceptance that people simply like what they like for reasons that need not be justified, proven or explained in any way? It’s embarrassing to the community, as I see it.

These threads are not new, nor are they limited to Head Fi, obviously. I just wanted to break up the echo in here. I don’t disagree with the science, but once more, for the people in the back, it’s not just science.

 

[Whazzzup]

 

[bigshot]

Honestly, for me it's also still hard to see it differently but it's actually more the other way around. In this thread believers are invited to convince the naysayers by naming examples of different sounding cables, or by coming up with measurements or with documented properly carried out blind tests.

Both sides should be required to put up supporting evidence. The problem is that cable believers will go on and on citing their uncontrolled impressions and acting as if those are just as valid as the carefully controlled tests that the skeptics point to. Believing in cables doesn't involve supporting evidence. It involves propping up an indefensible argument.

These threads aren’t about education any more. Sure, there is the occasional newbie looking for validation or even actual, hard science, but it’s not like it happens all the time, relative to threads like these, at least.

You have to realize how internet forums work. The audience reading the threads isn't the same as the people posting in it. Sound Science comes up in my google searches all the time (even my own posts!) I would bet that at least half of the page views here are from people googling up a question and never registering and never posting. The lurkers are the ones being addressed by those of us who have real information to share.

I find that I have trouble putting personalities or past history to anonymous usernames. But when someone pushes beyond a certain point, I realize that they are a lot cause because of willful ignorance, intellectual dishonesty, unconquerable bias, etc. I might be reply to their posts, but I'm no longer really speaking to them. I'm speaking past them to the audience of lurkers. They still listen even when the bulldozers of ignorance don't.

 

[Laura80]

These threads aren’t about education any more. Sure, there is the occasional newbie looking for validation or even actual, hard science, but it’s not like it happens all
time, relative to threads like these, at least. They appear to be bully pulpits over pretty much inconsequential things. And, more importantly, I could certainly ignore the comments or thread entirely, but then why does the forum even exist, if not to spark conversation? It’s like people want to have an opinion, post it, and not expect some sort of response? And the dismissive nastiness, the condescension, the stubborn non-acceptance that people simply like what they like for reasons that need not be justified, proven or explained in any way? It’s embarrassing to the community, as I see it.

These threads are not new, nor are they limited to Head Fi, obviously. I just wanted to break up the echo in here. I don’t disagree with the science, but once more, for the people in the back, it’s not just science.

I was recommended using a copper cable to improve treble response for my hd800’s by a member on another thread with the caveat that he was a ‘believer’ [in cables making auditory changes].

Another member replied immediately with ‘no they dont’ (or words to similar effect).

I believe they both believe they are correct but in the meantime I’m playing around with EQ.

 

[Henry Hua]

I only care about how cable looks. LOL

 

[castleofargh]

I was recommended using a copper cable to improve treble response for my hd800’s by a member on another thread with the caveat that he was a ‘believer’ [in cables making auditory changes].

Another member replied immediately with ‘no they dont’ (or words to similar effect).

I believe they both believe they are correct but in the meantime I’m playing around with EQ.

but that's the thing, believing shouldn't matter. the workings of a cable aren't spiritual. it's all about electrical signals running through it and how they might change and how much when we use a different cable. yet electrical measurements are the very last thing we see brought up to demonstrate a change (or lack of), or to justify purchasing special cables. to me it's already the sign that a lot of BS is going on.

I'm also a fan of EQ and love the versatility and control I have over sound with it. in fact the most expensive software I have on my computer is an EQ. and I wouldn't put as much money into a cable. not anymore(mistakes were made).

Honestly, for me it's also still hard to see it differently but it's actually more the other way around. In this thread believers are invited to convince the naysayers by naming examples of different sounding cables, or by coming up with measurements or with documented properly carried out blind tests. So the story goes on and on. The what I call default deny mindset applied here is a strange one and takes getting used to. To me there's also genuine good to be extracted from this cold place :lol: The multi-posters are very knowledgeable and kind of confront you to be rational or objective, which works well not only in my audio situation but it also makes a useful appearance from time to time outside the hobby. True story

we don't ask for evidence of difference to create an unfair position of power. although I'm sure it's perceived that way by anybody who doesn't fully understand how to demonstrate audibility. we do it because it's the only thing that can be demonstrated. we can't demonstrate that no cable will ever sound different. it's not testable and is just a silly claim. we should pay it no mind.
it's a simple enough fact that failing a test will have a very limited range of conclusions. me failing one doesn't prove there is nothing to be heard or that nobody else will hear it. so it interests me personally, but doesn't interest us much as a community because there is very little we can get from the data.

on the other hand if someone passes one experiment that we can all consider rigorous. that's it, the question of someone noticing a change and claiming so has been answered. how cool is that?
I can't put an end to an argument between somebody who claims to perceive clear changes, and somebody who claims he's wrong. I don't even have the guy's cables or his playback gears. it's unavoidable that the one claiming to perceive changes is the one who has to demonstrate something.
and that's why we keep asking them to run a blind test and/or some measurements. to give us confidence that there is indeed something worth caring about and that they're not full of crap.

I only care about how cable looks. LOL

quite often I pay a few more bucks if I like the look better. not a few hundred more, though^_^.

 

[gregorio]

[1] I'm curious why the OP and cable naysayers feel the need to convince people of anything.
[2] People want what they want for myriad reasons, not all of which are scientific

1. Really? It's not that we feel the need to convince cable believers of anything, more that we feel the need to un-convince them of a lie/falsehood they've already been convinced of.

2. Agreed and I personally have no problem with someone who wants to buy a cable because it looks better, for retail therapy or even because of brand name/bragging rights. However, how many of those who buy expensive audiophile cables do so under the delusion/misapprehension that they are at least partially buying an actual audible improvement/difference in cable performance?

Sure, there is the occasional newbie looking for validation or even actual, hard science, but it’s not like it happens all time ...

Yes it does happen all the time! How many times have you seen marketing materials, a review or opinions/impressions about an audiophile cable which doesn't assert audible differences? Higher fidelity, silver enhancing the highs, copper sounding warmer, an audiophile cable sounding more detailed, resolving or such like? Pretty much NEVER as far as I can recall!

G

 

[oldmate]

I was recommended using a copper cable to improve treble response

Then you get those that say silver improves treble response. This argument is akin to an unstoppable force meeting an immovable object.

With the short cable runs we are discussing IMHO cables make no difference whatsoever. Just my 0.0000000254 BTC's worth!!

I have purchased after market cables but for purely aesthetic or ergonomic reasons.

 

[Luke Thomas]

Just bought a $70 balanced cable. Is a lesser priced cable not a good purchase? Could it sound as good as a big dollar one?

 

[bigshot]

yes and yes