[sonitus mirus]

Apologies if I'm really off from understanding the matter. It's that @bigshot responded earlier along those lines so I've become curious about if the above implies that you do not hear differences between whatever gear you're using. Or does it mean you do hear differences but it's unlogical to you because for example measurements or some type of research indicates there should be no differences?

@bigshot, please feel free to reply. Could have asked you the same.

It means that any differences with audio between two non-defective cables that are well within the design specifications of the intended application are typically magnitudes below human hearing perception. This can be validated through math if the device(s) and cable properties are available, and also by measuring the audio output when possible. Where differences are being heard and verified through blind testing, the corresponding measurements or audio capture should also clearly indicate that a difference should be identifiable.

When someone claims to hear differences but offers no method to validate their findings, it cannot be assumed any difference is actually being identified. If the claim is extraordinary, and the choices are either a defective item or superhuman powers of perception that have never been validated in all of history, I'm going to assume something is broken, a mistake was made, or an item used was improper for the intended purpose.

 

[439598]

To answer your question. I am convinced myself that Cables make the differences, because I can make it myself, and I can make it into whatever I want at prices I want which is much cheaper than expensive cables vendors. Even the cheapest cables I make that is with quality materials, will still sound better than any stock cables can provide.

So...no, you can not convince people of something that is not real

Also, yes, Cables has different characteristics that can synergize with your systems in a positive or a negative results depend on personal preferences, which, not all 3rd expensive vendor can customize either

You're using a silver USB cable? see that's the problem on here, main audio cables difference are fairly obvious to you and me but at the end of the day its the quality of the signal passing through thats going to determine the significance of these differences. Convincing ''non-believers'' of the obvious things like speaker/headphone cable differences is very difficult for a few reasons. You are usually dealing with extremely stubborn narrow-minded mentalities, sometimes hearing abilities that arent at the same level as yourself which is unfortunate... but most important is how many others aspects of the system would be completely overlooked when someone hasnt even realised the importance of audio cables.

How many of them have friends or aquantainces who believe in not just audio cables but also digital cables, power cables and high quality components for them to go and hear what a proper system should sound like? none because it seems like if someone even mentions this idea to them they'll blacklist them and label them as delusional, the only opportunity they have is to test themselves but with all the other possible limitations in there system it would be easy for them to notice nothing and become even more hardened in the belief that cables dont matter.

 

[PointyFox]

You're using a silver USB cable? see that's the problem on here, main audio cables difference are fairly obvious to you and me but at the end of the day its the quality of the signal passing through thats going to determine the significance of these differences. Convincing ''non-believers'' of the obvious things like speaker/headphone cable differences is very difficult for a few reasons. You are usually dealing with extremely stubborn narrow-minded mentalities, sometimes hearing abilities that arent at the same level as yourself which is unfortunate... but most important is how many others aspects of the system would be completely overlooked when someone hasnt even realised the importance of audio cables.

How many of them have friends or aquantainces who believe in not just audio cables but also digital cables, power cables and high quality components for them to go and hear what a proper system should sound like? none because it seems like if someone even mentions this idea to them they'll blacklist them and label them as delusional, the only opportunity they have is to test themselves but with all the other possible limitations in there system it would be easy for them to notice nothing and become even more hardened in the belief that cables dont matter.

You're using a standard USB cable? see that's the problem on here, main audio cables difference doesn't exist to you and me but at the end of the day its the price of the system that matters. Convincing ''believers'' of the obvious things like no speaker/headphone cable differences is very difficult for a few reasons. You are usually dealing with extremely stubborn narrow-minded mentalities, sometimes hearing abilities that arent at the same level as yourself which is unfortunate... but most important is how the cost of the system would be completely overlooked when someone hasnt even realised that audio cable quality doesn't matter.

How many of them have friends or aquantainces who believe in not just audio cables but also digital cables, power cables and high quality components not making a difference for them to go and hear what a cost effective system sounds like? none because it seems like if someone even mentions this idea to them they'll blacklist them and label them as delusional, the only opportunity they have is to test themselves but with all the other highly priced junk in there system it would be easy for them to buy even more random crap and become even more hardened in the belief that cables matter.

 

[moriez]

Yes, every cable, amp, DAC and player I own sounds the same. I have a carefully calibrated system. I am very picky about EQ. I need all of my equipment to be audibly transparent, otherwise I would need to have a different calibration for each unit in the system. Whenever I buy a new piece of gear, I do a comparison test with other equipment I already own. I've done this with a high end headphone amp all the way down to a $40 Walmart DVD player. If I buy anything that isn't audibly transparent and it sounds different, I will box it up and send it back as defective. It's been decades now and I've haven't had to do that yet. Midrange equipment is very consistent and dependable.

Thanks. Glad I asked. I've read your reply a dozen times to be as sure as possible it's as simple as it seems. My translation of what you're saying is that in the many years you're involved you have not been able to tell any difference between two pieces of the same type of equipment, transducers excluded. Am I right? Genuinely like to know because my personal experience is so radically different.

 

[moriez]

It means that any differences with audio between two non-defective cables that are well within the design specifications of the intended application are typically magnitudes below human hearing perception. This can be validated through math if the device(s) and cable properties are available, and also by measuring the audio output when possible. Where differences are being heard and verified through blind testing, the corresponding measurements or audio capture should also clearly indicate that a difference should be identifiable.

When someone claims to hear differences but offers no method to validate their findings, it cannot be assumed any difference is actually being identified. If the claim is extraordinary, and the choices are either a defective item or superhuman powers of perception that have never been validated in all of history, I'm going to assume something is broken, a mistake was made, or an item used was improper for the intended purpose.

Thank you, I get an idea of what you're saying. One part that grabs my attention is what seems to be a main theme in the sound science forum. A default deny policy? Perceived differences between correctly build cables, maybe also amps and DACs in your case, can be ruled out as a cause of the equipment because these are typically below human hearing capability and two, people who claim they can hear differences will have a very hard time being taken seriously if unable to back up the claim with measurements, proper blind test or whatever other data. Correct me if I'm wrong. Trying to get an angle.

 

[TheSonicTruth]

You're using a silver USB cable? see that's the problem on here, main audio cables difference are fairly obvious to you and me but at the end of the day its the quality of the signal passing through thats going to determine the significance of these differences. Convincing ''non-believers'' of the obvious things like speaker/headphone cable differences is very difficult for a few reasons. You are usually dealing with extremely stubborn narrow-minded mentalities, sometimes hearing abilities that arent at the same level as yourself which is unfortunate... but most important is how many others aspects of the system would be completely overlooked when someone hasnt even realised the importance of audio cables.

How many of them have friends or aquantainces who believe in not just audio cables but also digital cables, power cables and high quality components for them to go and hear what a proper system should sound like? none because it seems like if someone even mentions this idea to them they'll blacklist them and label them as delusional, the only opportunity they have is to test themselves but with all the other possible limitations in there system it would be easy for them to notice nothing and become even more hardened in the belief that cables dont matter.

You're forgetting something: USBs transmit the sound in digital format. Ones and Zeros do not care whether the conductor is copper, silver, gold, or imaginationum.

 

[castleofargh]

You're using a silver USB cable? see that's the problem on here, main audio cables difference are fairly obvious to you and me but at the end of the day its the quality of the signal passing through thats going to determine the significance of these differences. Convincing ''non-believers'' of the obvious things like speaker/headphone cable differences is very difficult for a few reasons. You are usually dealing with extremely stubborn narrow-minded mentalities, sometimes hearing abilities that arent at the same level as yourself which is unfortunate... but most important is how many others aspects of the system would be completely overlooked when someone hasnt even realised the importance of audio cables.

How many of them have friends or aquantainces who believe in not just audio cables but also digital cables, power cables and high quality components for them to go and hear what a proper system should sound like? none because it seems like if someone even mentions this idea to them they'll blacklist them and label them as delusional, the only opportunity they have is to test themselves but with all the other possible limitations in there system it would be easy for them to notice nothing and become even more hardened in the belief that cables dont matter.

what you say isn't completely irrelevant because indeed, we all tend to orbit around our own "tribes of beliefs". and of course when I already believe that cable shouldn't cost much and that they won't make big differences unless one is defective in some way, I will not go try an endless list of fancy cables. which in turn will inevitably give me fewer opportunities to stumble upon something with a big influence on sound. in all those respects, you're right. we seek different stuff and so we find different stuff.

now what really causes that dichotomy in how we live, think and act on this hobby in your opinion? because to me it's absolutely obvious. you consider the anecdote of your sighted impressions as proof that cables make big changes. I experience the same anecdotes but I have higher standards as to what constitutes evidence. that's really it.
first I don't leave things to sighted impressions as I've had a great many opportunities to confirm that I'm very apt at fooling myself with sighted impressions. with controlled listening, I confirmed that the differences were usually smaller than what I thought they were. often times I wouldn't be able to tell anything at all once I got the ability to switch almost instantly between cables. and a few times, I did end up with audible differences, demonstrated, validated, proved thanks to those controlled listening. so when I say "I know there was an audible difference", it's not just me agreeing with my own ego about sighted impressions. my confidence comes from proper confirmation.
so I move on to the next step, measuring stuff to find out what's going on now that I know the differences I'm left with aren't just placebo and garbage testing methods.
measurements always got me to rapidly find some significant differences in such situations. maybe half of them were a slight change in loudness(meaning that once compensated I couldn't tell them apart anymore). a bunch were simply defective cables and even just a multimeter would have usually told me that much if I had started there. and a handful of times, circumstances made one cable with special characteristics better(objectively and/or subjectively) than the typical cheap standard cable. some matter of shielding with a particularly picky amp, some of the stuff I already mentioned with IEMs and crossovers. some USB cable that would really improve the measured signal because of some ferrite bead or whatever. all in all, I still only have a few such anecdotes where either the original cable was bad and a measurements would have confirmed it, or the circumstances created the particular demand for a special cable. this last situation brings us back to your remark. when I realized that some gear was overly sensitive to something(AKA unstable), unless it really cost too much money I systematically got rid of it. because to me, save for a few unavoidable circumstances, obvious changes in behavior is a sign of bad design. but to some audiophile on a quest for change, the same unstable gear will most likely be seen as great. the guy could perhaps think something along the lines of "it's so good and detailed, it even reveals the differences in cables". most likely the device is just not that well designed. but in such situation, we are very likely to see the same experience interpreted differently by different people.

for each of those confirmed anecdotes, I've had tens of cheap cables working to spec and letting me measure stuff to the limit of my measurement devices and probably beyond if I had a better ADC. so if in the vast majority of cases, the impact between cables is too small to be noticed by me, why would I run around telling people to believe that cables make a significant difference or that they should go buy special sorts or brands? that wouldn't be me depicting my understanding and experience. that would be me using weird anecdotes as if they were the norm. I don't like people saying that cables can't impact the sound, because that's false and I've had actual experience disproving such a universal claim. but I believe that making a big deal about special cables because of anecdotes is just as bad.

 

[castleofargh]

Thanks. Glad I asked. I've read your reply a dozen times to be as sure as possible it's as simple as it seems. My translation of what you're saying is that in the many years you're involved you have not been able to tell any difference between two pieces of the same type of equipment, transducers excluded. Am I right? Genuinely like to know because my personal experience is so radically different.

perhaps a relevant addendum to this. @bigshot is the type to purchase things by following a few sets of specs, basic guidelines and habits. and like several people around here(me included), those prerequisites will significantly reduce the chance for big extraordinary stuff to happen.
there is also the mentality of course. if someone tries 5 cables and only one sounds different, maybe that person will get interested in the "unique" cable. I can't talk in bigshot's name, but most certainly I would by default consider that cable defective and go pick among the 4 others. I'd need to see objective measurements(my own or someone else's) suggesting superiority before believing that an ugly duckling is in fact the beautiful swan in that group. and I would use the same logic for most gears.

but I admit that the end result has some air of self fulfilling prophesy for both view points.

 

[439598]

what you say isn't completely irrelevant because indeed, we all tend to orbit around our own "tribes of beliefs". and of course when I already believe that cable shouldn't cost much and that they won't make big differences unless one is defective in some way, I will not go try an endless list of fancy cables. which in turn will inevitably give me fewer opportunities to stumble upon something with a big influence on sound. in all those respects, you're right. we seek different stuff and so we find different stuff.

now what really causes that dichotomy in how we live, think and act on this hobby in your opinion? because to me it's absolutely obvious. you consider the anecdote of your sighted impressions as proof that cables make big changes. I experience the same anecdotes but I have higher standards as to what constitutes evidence. that's really it.
first I don't leave things to sighted impressions as I've had a great many opportunities to confirm that I'm very apt at fooling myself with sighted impressions. with controlled listening, I confirmed that the differences were usually smaller than what I thought they were. often times I wouldn't be able to tell anything at all once I got the ability to switch almost instantly between cables. and a few times, I did end up with audible differences, demonstrated, validated, proved thanks to those controlled listening. so when I say "I know there was an audible difference", it's not just me agreeing with my own ego about sighted impressions. my confidence comes from proper confirmation.
so I move on to the next step, measuring stuff to find out what's going on now that I know the differences I'm left with aren't just placebo and garbage testing methods.
measurements always got me to rapidly find some significant differences in such situations. maybe half of them were a slight change in loudness(meaning that once compensated I couldn't tell them apart anymore). a bunch were simply defective cables and even just a multimeter would have usually told me that much if I had started there. and a handful of times, circumstances made one cable with special characteristics better(objectively and/or subjectively) than the typical cheap standard cable. some matter of shielding with a particularly picky amp, some of the stuff I already mentioned with IEMs and crossovers. some USB cable that would really improve the measured signal because of some ferrite bead or whatever. all in all, I still only have a few such anecdotes where either the original cable was bad and a measurements would have confirmed it, or the circumstances created the particular demand for a special cable. this last situation brings us back to your remark. when I realized that some gear was overly sensitive to something(AKA unstable), unless it really cost too much money I systematically got rid of it. because to me, save for a few unavoidable circumstances, obvious changes in behavior is a sign of bad design. but to some audiophile on a quest for change, the same unstable gear will most likely be seen as great. the guy could perhaps think something along the lines of "it's so good and detailed, it even reveals the differences in cables". most likely the device is just not that well designed. but in such situation, we are very likely to see the same experience interpreted differently by different people.

for each of those confirmed anecdotes, I've had tens of cheap cables working to spec and letting me measure stuff to the limit of my measurement devices and probably beyond if I had a better ADC. so if in the vast majority of cases, the impact between cables is too small to be noticed by me, why would I run around telling people to believe that cables make a significant difference or that they should go buy special sorts or brands? that wouldn't be me depicting my understanding and experience. that would be me using weird anecdotes as if they were the norm. I don't like people saying that cables can't impact the sound, because that's false and I've had actual experience disproving such a universal claim. but I believe that making a big deal about special cables because of anecdotes is just as bad.

I do appreciate the well written and civilised response but Id just like to correct you on one thing:''you consider the anecdote of your sighted impressions as proof that cables make big changes'' with the exception of power cables (due to specific reasons not worth getting into) I have successly blind tested all cables to confirm if the differences I thought I heard existed (I was in the same position as you less than year ago and had to prove to myself). it involved having a friend switch cables and then guessing which one, for headphone cables it wasnt even require to switch, after having spent time listening to both cables in a normal environment to particular tracks the character of each were already obvious to me so I could tell almost instantly. the same process with RCA and USB, these were a bit more difficult but still easy after some practice.... To me these tests were easier than 320 kbps MP3 vs lossless.

I have no proof of course (not sure how you could provide proof of that) so this post is basically worthless to anyone who doesnt already ''believe'' in cables, It just doesnt seem right to not say this when I went to all that trouble to test in the first place.

I bet a lot of people who actually claim to hear the difference could pass a blind test with their own cables that they have spent a while listening to on their own system with their own choice of tracks in a comfortable, pressure free environment

 

[439598]

now what really causes that dichotomy in how we live, think and act on this hobby in your opinion? because to me it's absolutely obvious. you consider the anecdote of your sighted impressions as proof that cables make big changes. I experience the same anecdotes but I have higher standards as to what constitutes evidence. that's really it.

Also I never claimed the changes were big, the changes are in fact quite small, any of the inferior cables could deliver the signal with about 95% accuracy at worst (not easy to quantify so dont take that figure too seriously), My worst cable is the stock HD650 cable and this is still a great cable! Even though the differences are fairly small they are some of the most valuable and critical to truely realistic sound reproduction.

 

[castleofargh]

Thank you, I get an idea of what you're saying. One part that grabs my attention is what seems to be a main theme in the sound science forum. A default deny policy? Perceived differences between correctly build cables, maybe also amps and DACs in your case, can be ruled out as a cause of the equipment because these are typically below human hearing capability and two, people who claim they can hear differences will have a very hard time being taken seriously if unable to back up the claim with measurements, proper blind test or whatever other data. Correct me if I'm wrong. Trying to get an angle.

that's mostly healthy skepticism and in some ways, what science would suggest to do.
1/ we're on the web. so when someone says "trust me I heard a difference", I don't believe it's a lack of respect to have solid reservations. ^_^
2/ most people claim sound differences, but didn't get those impressions in a controlled experiment. often they could be right, and sometimes they could be wrong for various reasons such as bias, preconception, poorly set up test... again, it's just more practical to reject everything until some evidence of the event is provided. fact based interpretations can only start once we've confirmed that we're indeed in the presence of a fact.
3/ we tend to approach an experiment with the null hypothesis and then attempt to disprove it or have someone attempt to disprove it(depending on who's doing the experiment). why? well, it can be very hard or often impossible to prove that we're right. but we can usually prove that we're wrong about a well set hypothesis. disproving the null hypothesis when 2 cables sound different is actually pretty easy to do. we just have to be able to tell them apart by ear. as the claim is about different sound, looking at them or knowing in advance obviously can't prove anything about sound.

we all get mad when we're treated like fools or liars. I take such accusations very very poorly. people don't like me when I'm told that I'm a liar. so I very much get the typical hatred for this section and our ready to reject attitude.
but calling people fools or liars is not what's going on here. it's really all about a practical way to sort things out. maybe people would get along better if they could just understand that with science no theory is final. and a theory is what we're most confident about.
when we reject something, we only reject it until new evidence makes us reconsider the fact and obviously the conclusion if the new facts challenges it. I wouldn't say that everybody acting all Sound Sciency will always be able to put his ego aside and retract his position when presented with legitimate reasons to do so. on each side of any argument, some people really care about winning, that just another bias in humans. but many here will reconsider because that's how we were taught to reason. that's how we go to bed a little less wrong than the day before, and many people care about that. it would be strange to care about objective reality and not want to know when we were wrong about it. at least that's how I feel.

 

[moriez]

obvious changes in behavior is a sign of bad design. but to some audiophile on a quest for change, the same unstable gear will most likely be seen as great. the guy could perhaps think something along the lines of "it's so good and detailed, it even reveals the differences in cables". most likely the device is just not that well designed. but in such situation, we are very likely to see the same experience interpreted differently by different people.

Good read! I like how you make an effort to show the two sides of the story. Noteworthy is that most of us will not discover if gear is unstable on the condition it does not obviously fail. What you on any given day conclude to be badly designed audibly different equipment because of your much deeper interest in the technical background and throw out of the collection as a result, doesn't even come close to crossing most of Head-Fi's minds. I know better but let me speak for myself when I say I want changes, to search, to find, to tweak. Not caring the least for what measurements are like or if it's build within spec etc.

For me this offers a clear new perspective which if I'm not being too incomplete about it brings me a step closer to understanding where some of you are coming from. On that note, would you say that ''obvious changes in behavior is a sign of bad design'' is a defining mindset in the sound science forum and/or objectivist spirit?

 

[castleofargh]

I do appreciate the well written and civilised response but Id just like to correct you on one thing:''you consider the anecdote of your sighted impressions as proof that cables make big changes'' with the exception of power cables (due to specific reasons not worth getting into) I have successly blind tested all cables to confirm if the differences I thought I heard existed (I was in the same position as you less than year ago and had to prove to myself). it involved having a friend switch cables and then guessing which one, for headphone cables it wasnt even require to switch, after having spent time listening to both cables in a normal environment to particular tracks the character of each were already obvious to me so I could tell almost instantly. the same process with RCA and USB, these were a bit more difficult but still easy after some practice.... To me these tests were easier than 320 kbps MP3 vs lossless.

I have no proof of course (not sure how you could provide proof of that) so this post is basically worthless to anyone who doesnt already ''believe'' in cables, It just doesnt seem right to not say this when I went to all that trouble to test in the first place.

I bet a lot of people who actually claim to hear the difference could pass a blind test with their own cables that they have spent a while listening to on their own system with their own choice of tracks in a comfortable, pressure free environment

if you tell me you heard something and specify nothing, I'll assume that it was a sighted test and as such that your impressions is irrelevant. not because it's always wrong, but because no control means no way to confirm anything.
but if you tell me you heard a difference in a blind test, maybe that's really gullible of me, but I'll usually trust you.

 

[castleofargh]

Also I never claimed the changes were big, the changes are in fact quite small, any of the inferior cables could deliver the signal with about 95% accuracy at worst (not easy to quantify so dont take that figure too seriously), My worst cable is the stock HD650 cable and this is still a great cable! Even though the differences are fairly small they are some of the most valuable and critical to truely realistic sound reproduction.

my bad on that one, I pushed you into the extremist box for no reason. and I appreciate anybody who will stay clear form bight and day declarations.

lol if I could just write a little faster, this page would be a chat instead of a forum ^_^.

 

[sonitus mirus]

if you tell me you heard something and specify nothing, I'll assume that it was a sighted test and as such that your impressions is irrelevant. not because it's always wrong, but because no control means no way to confirm anything.
but if you tell me you heard a difference in a blind test, maybe that's really gullible of me, but I'll usually trust you.

This has been my position all along. I will add the caveat that if the circumstances appear to be unusual and outside of established science, I would attribute any difference being identified as to improper use, a defective device/cable, or the information provided was incorrect.

Clearly, a difference is more likely to arise between an amplifier and transducers and care should be taken to make certain the cable is within specifications with regards to the application.

I don't think many of the people that claim to hear differences with short interconnects truly understand the mathematics involved with the cable properties and how they interact with our hearing ability of an audio signal.