How do I convince people that audio cables DO NOT make a difference
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May 18, 2021 at 7:26 PM Post #2,551 of 3,657
That's a pretty extreme correction! Do you really use that?
That’s for my QC 35 II when used fully wired and ANC off. They are pretty bad in this mode, but I have the benefit of not using battery and not blocking everything when I’m at home. If I use ANC the correction isn’t as insane, but that uses battery and I only use it when I’m in a flight pretty much.
 
May 18, 2021 at 7:59 PM Post #2,552 of 3,657
Wow! I didn't know Bose made stuff that wonky. They must sound like listening to music at the bottom of a tub of molasses. A 17dB difference between 6 and 7kHz... whiplash!
 
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May 18, 2021 at 8:11 PM Post #2,553 of 3,657
This is the EQ I use with the measurements overlaid:
1621383092768.png

And this is if I turn on ANC:
1621383265597.png

And EQd:
7D83676C-8116-4E48-BFEE-51EE887E59B6.png
 

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May 18, 2021 at 8:30 PM Post #2,554 of 3,657
Interesting. Never seen anything like that. It makes me wonder what they were trying to accomplish there. Maybe they wanted to make sure you noticed that the ANC was an improvement, so they did something to make it sound awful without it.
 
May 28, 2021 at 1:31 AM Post #2,555 of 3,657
Most people think that fancy cables have the ability to sound better than normal cables. But that is backwards
I agree. Most these fancy cables have some extreme winding and/or braiding going on, which always makes things worse, just for looks.


My humble suggestion would be to try to measure resistance of these cables using a simple multimeter
Just a clarification that as music is more like AC, so a multimeter will not measure AC impedance at certain frequencies.
Especially this heavy braided cable types.


Bose made stuff that wonky.
Bose has always made mud sounding headphones, and only excelled at comfort and noise cancelling.
Forget using for music, as they make mud dull sound.
😵
 
Jul 31, 2021 at 11:40 PM Post #2,556 of 3,657
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Aug 1, 2021 at 5:09 AM Post #2,557 of 3,657
This looks like it’s about our ability to detect lack of fidelity, not perceiving differences between two samples. Human hearing will adjust over time to cover up and reveal errors, but if you have a reference track and a sample to compare it to, you don’t want hearing to adjust. You want to detect differences. Auditory memory is the most important factor with this kind of test. Time is better spent determining if your reference track is your true target.
 
Aug 3, 2021 at 7:17 PM Post #2,558 of 3,657
I inadvertently posted my perceptual impressions in this forum which were intended for the headphone forum, subsequently realized they were not scientifically objective and I respectfully acknowledged my inadvertence. That said, I would like to add my opinion to the topic at hand.

After high school, a classmate obtained an apprenticeship at Fantasy Studios, in Berekely, CA. We were ardent music fans of jazz in the 60’s and he was gracious enough to invite a few of us over to the studio after hours. He explained everything and demonstrated his new-found knowledge in music recording. I sopped it up to say the least. What is germane to this topic is that the entire studio was wired with Mogami Cable. There was a spool of it and one of his primary jobs was to make the ends and run the connections. As an aside, before I get back on topic, he made a dub from the master two-track he personally made directly from the multitrack master down to a premium cassette. He said, with a grin, that it would blow me out of the water. Needless to say it did.

Back on topic. At that time, before Monster cable, there were no boutique brands of cable. In fact, I came to learn through him, that most major recording studios used Mogami, or its equivalent, due to the excellent RF rejection, flat transmission of the audible frequency band and durability. In later years, as boutique cables hit the market, he advised they would never be adopted in a studio environment primarily due to cost. To buttress his point, he, his colleagues and I auditioned several of the higher end cables in the studio, cabled from the 2 track mix down to the studio amp to the full-range mastering speakers. None of the engineers who had many years of recording experience among them, nor I, could hear any difference whatsoever.

The supply house in Oakland, who serviced the studio, as well as the local musician community had a massive auditioning room where one could listen to components. It was fully custom wired in Mogami throughout. When building my system, I baited one of the reps, my good friend, in tongue-n-cheek-jest if he would recommend a more revealing boutique cable. He immediately called in his colleagues and they explained, yes they carried Monster for the non-studio crowd, but they strongly advised me to stay on course with Mogami and making my own cables to suit. To prove the point, they brought in Monster Cable, a few other higher end cables of the era and some generic wires for an audition. No one in the room could hear the slightest difference listening through that multi thousand dollar system which was used in most of their clients’ recording studios. So why buy the boutique cables was the inescapable question? I didn’t have the nerve to say it was a put-on and took the lesson. Incredible sound to say the least.

My conclusion from these experiences, expressed in a single summary point: Music is recorded on Mogami so how can a cable add anything it didn’t capture in the first place. Cables can smear, obscure or even tilt frequencies as an equalizer somewhat, if poorly made, but a spectrum sweep of a cable should be true to the audible frequency-band input, and therefore transparent. In fact, that is how the supply house evaluated and tested everything that came through their shop as a prerequisite to selling the component to the studios. That, they stated, was what they based their reputation on and was the end of the discussion about cable differences. The rest, they said, was just auditory and fiscal ignorance - their words. I prefer to say, if you hear it, like it, can afford it - buy it. Not my place.

To that, I would lastly add, that one of the engineers in the studio supply house also helped a friend in his consumer stereo shop. They used to laugh when someone bought extravagantly expensive boutique cables, but would recite the mantra: A fool and his money...

My home system has been cabled in mogami since I built it many years ago. For full disclosure, I should add that my main listening system is entirely tube based with Magnaplanars because that is what I bought over thirty years ago and have been fully satisfied with the sound reproduction. I also use a SS studio amp in my recording rack that is extremely competent. One would be hard-pressed to tell the difference between the two, although measurements will reveal them, but auditory-wise I am accustomed to their sound. Ears do that. The gear has Peter Dahl Transformers and sounds glorious late at night, but I digress...

A couple of years back, my colleague went on to win a Grammy for recording excellence.
 
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Aug 4, 2021 at 12:28 AM Post #2,559 of 3,657
I've worked in some of the biggest studios in Hollywood. They don't use fancy cables. I asked a head engineer once and he said he got cables in bulk on big spools at Monoprice. Durability and shielding are important. It doesn't cost any more to get a cable that can do that. Frequency response balance is simply a matter of using the right wire for the right purpose. That doesn't cost extra either.

Sound engineers use the right tool for the job and don't worry about brand names or prestige. That is stuff duffers worry about.
 
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Aug 4, 2021 at 12:46 AM Post #2,560 of 3,657
I've worked in some of the biggest studios in Hollywood. They don't use fancy cables. I asked a head engineer once and he said he got cables in bulk on big spools at Monoprice. Durability and shielding are important. It doesn't cost any more to get a cable that can do that. Frequency response balance is simply a matter of using the right wire for the right purpose. That doesn't cost extra either.

Sound engineers use the right tool for the job and don't worry about brand names or prestige. That is stuff duffers worry about.

An even more extreme example: consider super sensitive electronic measurement devices, things capable of measuring differences in properties of signals millions or billions of times smaller than what humans can detect. They don't use use fancy cables.
 
Aug 4, 2021 at 12:47 AM Post #2,561 of 3,657
I've worked in some of the biggest studios in Hollywood. They don't use fancy cables. I asked a head engineer once and he said he got cables in bulk on big spools at Monoprice. Durability and shielding are important. It doesn't cost any more to get a cable that can do that. Frequency response balance is simply a matter of using the right wire for the right purpose. That doesn't cost extra either.

Sound engineers use the right tool for the job and don't worry about brand names or prestige. That is stuff duffers worry about.
Well I guess there's professional applications that also require balanced cables because of longer runs and significant enough interference in large auditoriums.....even then, those cables are moderately priced compared to prices I've seen audiophiles spend for interconnects or even power cables. Really? Or what about sound absorbing spikes for purely solid state gear? I also remember reading on this forum years ago that people subscribed to improved sound with CDs if they marked out the outer edge with a marker. My sound isolation for my turn table is hand made styrofoam pads inside cardboard tubes (so that now my records don't skip if I'm moving around). I've had to deal with some serious sound interference in my townhouse: have a radio tower near me. For my speaker receivers, I've used surge suppressors with RF filters, and still find Amazon 14 guage speaker cables are fine for longer runs with my 7.1.4 speaker setup. When I built a subwoofer, the first plate amplifier sounded fine as is. It started developing problems, so I replaced it with another. It had terrible interference from the radio tower until I found a good ground loop isolator from Blue Jeans (so specialized application, and most one should expect to spend).
 
Aug 4, 2021 at 1:04 AM Post #2,562 of 3,657
If sound comes out and the output is to spec, it doesn't matter what the cable is made of or how much it cost. The problem with audiophiles is that they think that every dollar spent must make an audible improvement. They'll admit the law of diminishing returns and claim that their well trained hearing is sensitive to the last 1%, so they need to spend more. The truth is they hear just like everyone else and all that money is buying them nothing.

The other thing is that they list expensive equipment like a laundry list, but they never mention their listening room, which can be more important than the speakers and amps they put in it.
 
Aug 7, 2021 at 12:22 AM Post #2,563 of 3,657
Thanks for all the thumbs up, fellas, glad you enjoyed the story. The question posed (paraphrased) was how to convince audiophiles cables don’t make a difference has but one answer, really. You can’t - period.

Standing in a studio with Grammy Award winning producers and engineers and hearing a difference where they cannot is the quintessential conundrum. You are out there on your own. When studios audition Microphones, Preamps, EQs and Compressors, for example, it is a prerequisite that the device is transparent before any adjustment just as cable should be (and is). The sound signature of any device is a consequence of altering the signal. I think it is safe to say that changing a cable to alter the sound signature is simply absurd. In no studio I have been associated with both domestically and internationally is that done. This is precisely why studios have patch panels where the engineers can bring in the device of choice for the sound signature they want. Changing cable is like changing the length of coaxial cable for frequency changes in Ham Radio. That however, is laugh for a different discipline. (As a licensed Ham, I get a kick out of those arguments).

That said, the messianic compulsion to convince someone what they don’t hear or shouldn’t hear is an exercise in insanity, to paraphrase Einstein.

I see the door. Thanks for letting me drop by.

Regards to all...
 
Aug 7, 2021 at 3:26 AM Post #2,564 of 3,657
Everyone can be wrong or right. And a sound engineer doesn't hear any better than any other person with human ears. Critical thinking is the key. You have to be in search of the truth to find it. The theme around here is... Welcome to Sound Science, sorry about your preconceptions.
 
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Aug 10, 2021 at 2:21 PM Post #2,565 of 3,657
There is a misconception here.
The thread title includes all audio cables.
Most cables that are costly, are the headphone and interconnect markets.

So what is the misconception?
That the studio XLR cables be used as an example.
The issue is that studio XLR method uses higher amplified runs of separately run balanced signals that are reversed polarity at their destination to electronically eliminate the noise and any interference issues in the long runs.

It's like cheating because it nothing like the lesser "line level" type voltages, and using reverse polarity noise cancellation technique. So of course the cable would not matter in the studios if they all standard type studio cables.
😯😄
 
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