How do I convince people that audio cables DO NOT make a difference
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Oct 30, 2020 at 5:27 PM Post #1,816 of 3,657
I took RCA line out from the DVD player. It was a cheap one. No HDMI. Skip to chapter 2, hit pause quick. Then hit play on both players at the same time. Try a couple of times and they will land in close sync and hold it until the end of the CD. It’s simple.
 
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Oct 30, 2020 at 5:35 PM Post #1,817 of 3,657
I’ve even compared an SACD player to a CD player using the SACD layer compared to redbook layer. No audible difference. It was hard to find a hybrid SACD with the same mastering on both layers though.

But this thread is about wires, not me.
 
Oct 30, 2020 at 6:29 PM Post #1,819 of 3,657
Headphones (I think I had Senn HD590s back then), my own speaker system and the reference speaker system of a sound mixer friend. He had some headphones too, but I don’t know what they were. There’s a detailed description on Head-Fi somewhere.
 
Oct 30, 2020 at 7:44 PM Post #1,820 of 3,657
Headphones (I think I had Senn HD590s back then), my own speaker system and the reference speaker system of a sound mixer friend. He had some headphones too, but I don’t know what they were. There’s a detailed description on Head-Fi somewhere.
Those cans have horrible resolving character... I guess they are a mere *ok* for their price... But not worth doing any testing... Lol you wasted your time.
 
Oct 30, 2020 at 7:51 PM Post #1,821 of 3,657
"It's either your equipment or you're deaf"... Yada yada yada... Heard it all before. If it's so small that decent cans, a good speaker system and a professional sound system can't reveal it, it isn't worth worrying about. I'm not sure what I would hear with "better" headphones anyway, considering that the difference between 16/44.1 and SACD falls beyond the range of human hearing.
 
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Oct 30, 2020 at 9:59 PM Post #1,822 of 3,657
You likely have low end stuff so no surprize you can't head a difference in a system that costs hundreds of bucks... They are budget system with a budget sound
-"Magicarp, splash attack!"
it's not very effective.
-"it's time to use my strongest attack: Wall of words, I pick you! "




I have no issue with the idea that 2 cables can cause perceived differences. I think everybody here can believe in the possibility. But making it a generality is another matter entirely.

I've discussed with quite a few people claiming that their silver cable was doing this and that to the sound. But the moment I dig a little deeper into how they reached a certain conclusion, I usually fall into a minefield of logical fallacies and inconclusive testing methods. Now, witnessing how the supporters of an idea usually do so for faulty reasons, that's not proof that the idea itself is bad. But it's certainly not a good sign.

You proposed a few general ideas that you clearly assume to be factual. It might be worth it to clearly define them and consider if they're as factual as you think they are.
You insist on a correlation between money invested in the playback system, and the ability to notice cable differences. In the audiophile market, AFAIK, the relation between money and fidelity is a giant mess. That alone is troublesome for your rational.
So let's remove the money to fidelity blur, and go straight to fidelity. I don't think you will have an issue with that. The proposition is now that we need a certain level of fidelity from the playback chain to be able to perceive the difference between cables. Is this fine with you? I'm not trying to put words into your mouth, but to remove unnecessary problems.

I think there is merit to the idea that the lack of fidelity in a playback chain could impede our ability to hear stuff. But I would argue that right now we have no clue what difference it is that we're supposed to hear between silver an copper cable. That we don't know the magnitude of such a change(if it's even something consistent for all cables). And that we don't have a clue what type of noise or distortion caused by a playback rig, would be susceptible to mask those differences, or how loud they need to be.
From my own limited understanding of electricity and auditory masking, I'm tempted to conclude that your proposition is mighty vague and doesn't say much of anything in practice. I have no idea how you think you can determine what is or isn't transparent enough for the task at hand?

Another pretty serious issue, is the fact that if 2 cables really had only silver or copper changing their otherwise identical electrical characteristics, then in almost all audio cases, you wouldn't be able to notice anything. Simply because the variations(strictly happening to the signal in the cable itself!!!!!) we'd expect to measure in the audible range are below typical hearing thresholds for most variables I can think about. And I think that's what rubs most electrical engineers the wrong way. It would really be a great deal for your point and anybody talking about the sound of silver cables, or good vs whatever fancy audiophile brand, if we could see measurements of changes at magnitudes we can consider audible. Without such data, we have little reason to take any of this seriously.

But even if we did get data suggesting some serious variations caused by switching cables, or some fairly serious and documented listening test showing that the listener did perceive a difference between cables, we still wouldn't be in the clear. Because then we'd have to seriously check that the differences are in fact caused by the metal used and nothing else. If only to avoid turning some anecdotal accident into false conclusions about silver vs copper.
Often times when discussing with audiophiles, I come to realize that they own 2 very different cables but decided to only focus on the fact that one was silver. We obviously have to avoid such mistakes and confirm that the metal is indeed causing the difference.
Somebody mentioned plugs and soldering job. My own experience agrees that they are more likely to cause significant differences, than silver vs copper in a short audio cable like those we consumers typically use.



Last but not least, silver does not have a sound because the main impacts on sound will almost always vary based on what is plugged at both ends of the cables. Both the type of signal change and the magnitude of it, can greatly vary with different rigs. And that makes me want to circle back to your idea that one needs a certain equipment to hear the difference. I happen to very much agree with that. I just disagree with the reasons you give to support that proposition. I think some audio gear can magnify the differences between cables, which in turn might reach audible levels sometimes. But I don't think it has anything to do with money or even fidelity. IMO it's much more likely to be related to the type of load, impedance values, and things like that(actual electrical specs).
 
Oct 30, 2020 at 11:07 PM Post #1,823 of 3,657
-"Magicarp, splash attack!"
it's not very effective.
-"it's time to use my strongest attack: Wall of words, I pick you! "




I have no issue with the idea that 2 cables can cause perceived differences. I think everybody here can believe in the possibility. But making it a generality is another matter entirely.

I've discussed with quite a few people claiming that their silver cable was doing this and that to the sound. But the moment I dig a little deeper into how they reached a certain conclusion, I usually fall into a minefield of logical fallacies and inconclusive testing methods. Now, witnessing how the supporters of an idea usually do so for faulty reasons, that's not proof that the idea itself is bad. But it's certainly not a good sign.

You proposed a few general ideas that you clearly assume to be factual. It might be worth it to clearly define them and consider if they're as factual as you think they are.
You insist on a correlation between money invested in the playback system, and the ability to notice cable differences. In the audiophile market, AFAIK, the relation between money and fidelity is a giant mess. That alone is troublesome for your rational.
So let's remove the money to fidelity blur, and go straight to fidelity. I don't think you will have an issue with that. The proposition is now that we need a certain level of fidelity from the playback chain to be able to perceive the difference between cables. Is this fine with you? I'm not trying to put words into your mouth, but to remove unnecessary problems.

I think there is merit to the idea that the lack of fidelity in a playback chain could impede our ability to hear stuff. But I would argue that right now we have no clue what difference it is that we're supposed to hear between silver an copper cable. That we don't know the magnitude of such a change(if it's even something consistent for all cables). And that we don't have a clue what type of noise or distortion caused by a playback rig, would be susceptible to mask those differences, or how loud they need to be.
From my own limited understanding of electricity and auditory masking, I'm tempted to conclude that your proposition is mighty vague and doesn't say much of anything in practice. I have no idea how you think you can determine what is or isn't transparent enough for the task at hand?

Another pretty serious issue, is the fact that if 2 cables really had only silver or copper changing their otherwise identical electrical characteristics, then in almost all audio cases, you wouldn't be able to notice anything. Simply because the variations(strictly happening to the signal in the cable itself!!!!!) we'd expect to measure in the audible range are below typical hearing thresholds for most variables I can think about. And I think that's what rubs most electrical engineers the wrong way. It would really be a great deal for your point and anybody talking about the sound of silver cables, or good vs whatever fancy audiophile brand, if we could see measurements of changes at magnitudes we can consider audible. Without such data, we have little reason to take any of this seriously.

But even if we did get data suggesting some serious variations caused by switching cables, or some fairly serious and documented listening test showing that the listener did perceive a difference between cables, we still wouldn't be in the clear. Because then we'd have to seriously check that the differences are in fact caused by the metal used and nothing else. If only to avoid turning some anecdotal accident into false conclusions about silver vs copper.
Often times when discussing with audiophiles, I come to realize that they own 2 very different cables but decided to only focus on the fact that one was silver. We obviously have to avoid such mistakes and confirm that the metal is indeed causing the difference.
Somebody mentioned plugs and soldering job. My own experience agrees that they are more likely to cause significant differences, than silver vs copper in a short audio cable like those we consumers typically use.



Last but not least, silver does not have a sound because the main impacts on sound will almost always vary based on what is plugged at both ends of the cables. Both the type of signal change and the magnitude of it, can greatly vary with different rigs. And that makes me want to circle back to your idea that one needs a certain equipment to hear the difference. I happen to very much agree with that. I just disagree with the reasons you give to support that proposition. I think some audio gear can magnify the differences between cables, which in turn might reach audible levels sometimes. But I don't think it has anything to do with money or even fidelity. IMO it's much more likely to be related to the type of load, impedance values, and things like that(actual electrical specs).
Tl, Dr?

Sorry, that was rude of me. Your post is great and good quality
 
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Oct 31, 2020 at 12:48 AM Post #1,824 of 3,657
I have a very resolving system and I can hear it clearly and everyone that comes over too
Yeah, you can always hear stuff that has a delta of about 0.0x dB exactly using good cables? It's pretty good that I don't have your ears, or I would be worrying too much about cables.
 
Oct 31, 2020 at 12:53 AM Post #1,826 of 3,657
I was going to say something, but I don't want to feed the troll. Sorry.
 
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Oct 31, 2020 at 10:57 AM Post #1,828 of 3,657
Irrelevant, immaterial. The difference between the three most common conductors is minimal
did you miss the line :the difference is miniscule!
it is up there, just take a look.
For the record, absolutely, silver and copper for all practical purposes in Hifi are the same.
 
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Oct 31, 2020 at 12:33 PM Post #1,830 of 3,657
Differences cannot be observed with low quality gear like mojo and equivalent hp
I can't really comment on DACs and HPs, but for the most important bit of gear, I'll counter that both top-quality and just regular everyday bongs give you the right resolving power...

:wink:

Just poking fun.
But seriously, although I have a BS in Physics, I switched to Neuroscience for my graduate work, so my understanding of these things is rather simple minded. Can you help?

Although the conductance of silver is indeed roughly 5% better than copper, lowering the wire gauge by one unit increases the conductance about 25% or 30% or so. If you have a silver cable of one gauge and a copper cable one gauge unit lower, the copper cable will have better conductance (lower resistance) than the silver. Am I missing something? Is there more to it than conductance/resistance? Can it be explained to someone with only an undergraduate degree?
 
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