[HiFi47]

Add a zobel(DCR) and L-pad

Value of L-pad

15ohm series
10ohm parallel

The L-pad will dampen the RAB by 10dB overall. Zobel will make sure that damping doesnt skew off the response of driver(FR)

Now paralleling them would give you

9.26ohm impedance and 99dB @1kHz.

So, finally mission completed. My first DIY Iems are done, and they sound great!

Many thanks to dhruvmeena96 and Mas Tio from Jaben Network Jogjakarta

 

[dhruvmeena96]

So, finally mission completed. My first DIY Iems are done, and they sound great!



Many thanks to dhruvmeena96 and Mas Tio from Jaben Network Jogjakarta

Which driver...since shells look huge

RAB is tiny driver man

 

[et.haan]

Hey guys, at our scale, how much does phase coherency matter? I saw the Jerry Harvery Freqphase video (here ) and thought "crap, im going to have to completely change the design for my IEM's" (which is quite the problem for the nature of the EST) But, I look at the a/u12t, and right there in the snout was the Tia driver, doing the complete opposite. Now here I am, thinking, who can I trust? I think I can trust 64, due to how the a/u12T is at the top of Crinacles list. I would love you guys's opinions on this.

@crinacle any thoughts?

also - on the Sonion Electrostatic driver IEM's you tested, would you say that they are particularly insensitive? The current plans I have, response-wise, are very similar to the modded 64 n8 you did. Would this sound particularly "off" with the EST? I am planning on damping the midrange and woofer 15-20 DB

 

[eunice]

I think it does matter a lot, this is why the soundstage of finale 2 or 4xRAF builds is so much better.

 

[et.haan]

I think it does matter a lot, this is why the soundstage of finale 2 or 4xRAF builds is so much better.

right. So Harvey isnt lying, but in terms of SQ, a short, horned tweeter provides more benefit to SQ than phase coherency, as I see more praising the Tia than Harvey's builds

I have no clue how, but finding a way to do both of these would be awesome.

 

[eunice]

right. So Harvey isnt lying.

There is another issue with his claim: I don’t think you can get that straight of a phase graph for acoustical phase ever.

If I measure acoustical phase - even of a single driver - I always get a very wiggled line, which is normal for an IEM. After all if your tube is 2cm long, a wave of a multiple of 2cm length will arrive at a different phase from a wave that is a multiple of say 1.5cm length.

Even if your measurement setup corrects for that, you will not get a straight line for a two driver setup with one driver being in a long tube. It’s just not possible, or I fundamentally don’t understand something.

How do you even measure acoustical phase in an IEM?

 

[et.haan]

There is another issue with his claim: I don’t think you can get that straight of a phase graph for acoustical phase ever.

If I measure acoustical phase - even of a single driver - I always get a very wiggled line, which is normal for an IEM. After all if your tube is 2cm long, a wave of a multiple of 2cm length will arrive at a different phase from a wave that is a multiple of say 1.5cm length.

Even if your measurement setup corrects for that, you will not get a straight line for a two driver setup with one driver being in a long tube. It’s just not possible, or I fundamentally don’t understand something.

How do you even measure acoustical phase in an IEM?

That makes sense. I was wondering a while ago, why isn’t the phase on the EX4R (single driver) flat on rtings, and that’s why. Or is that electrical phase?

I can comfortable say that with a 711, phase is accurate. I emailed them, and they are very knowledgeable. Unless that is electric phase.

I could swear there was some Chi-fi i em that had a dual FK driver tubed up, and all the way back in the concha, but now I can’t find it. Maybe it was BGVP. Maybe they are just copying JH, as one of their models does the same with dual SWFK’s.

 

[Xymordos]

right. So Harvey isnt lying, but in terms of SQ, a short, horned tweeter provides more benefit to SQ than phase coherency, as I see more praising the Tia than Harvey's builds

I have no clue how, but finding a way to do both of these would be awesome.

I think acoustic phase doesn't really matter - the JH phase coherent IEMs have a smaller soundstage than the TIA ones, which likely has some screwed up phase.

 

[et.haan]

Another idea..... If everybody here tells me to think (in IEM's) about the movement of sound through a tube as water through a hose, does that mean that a larger tube, or a horn, would effectively slow the speed of the sound traveling, due to less pressure/resistance? And a smaller diamater tube would increase it? I know UE did this on the woofer for ue18pro woofer. Is this a phase-corrective measure?

Or is this just a low pass, as he says.

If this theory is correct, could you control the speed of which a drivers sound meets the ear with tubing?

Also, due to the length of the waves, I dont get how phase could make much of a difference here... a wavelength is so short

 

[eunice]

Also, due to the length of the waves, I dont get how phase could make much of a difference here... a wavelength is so short

Bass waves (20hz) are approx 15m, highs (20khz) are approx 15mm in free air.

I don’t think the water analogy works, as a wave travels as a disturbance in air and the air remains (mostly) still or at least mostly returns to the original position. So no, sound does not travel faster in thinner tubes.

Sound travels faster in a denser medium eg higher air pressure or if transmitted via a solid - like your bones.

In smaller tubes you have less audible wall reflections, but also less air molecules. So for the same sound pressure at the ear the air molecules have to move faster (and further) back and forth compared to a larger tube, resulting in the friction on the tube walls to convert part of the sound energy into heat. I guess in a sense with really small tubes and loud volumes the water analogy starts to make sense again, but that is what we want to avoid.

The more I learn about this stuff the more complex it gets and the more questions I have. Welcome to the rabbit hole

Anyhow, what I measure is a shift in resonance frequency for different tube widths and lengths.

 

[dhruvmeena96]

Another idea..... If everybody here tells me to think (in IEM's) about the movement of sound through a tube as water through a hose, does that mean that a larger tube, or a horn, would effectively slow the speed of the sound traveling, due to less pressure/resistance? And a smaller diamater tube would increase it? I know UE did this on the woofer for ue18pro woofer. Is this a phase-corrective measure?

Or is this just a low pass, as he says.

If this theory is correct, could you control the speed of which a drivers sound meets the ear with tubing?

Also, due to the length of the waves, I dont get how phase could make much of a difference here... a wavelength is so short

Hey guys, at our scale, how much does phase coherency matter? I saw the Jerry Harvery Freqphase video (here ) and thought "***, im going to have to completely change the design for my IEM's" (which is quite the problem for the nature of the EST) But, I look at the a/u12t, and right there in the snout was the Tia driver, doing the complete opposite. Now here I am, thinking, who can I trust? I think I can trust 64, due to how the a/u12T is at the top of Crinacles list. I would love you guys's opinions on this.

@crinacle any thoughts?

also - on the Sonion Electrostatic driver IEM's you tested, would you say that they are particularly insensitive? The current plans I have, response-wise, are very similar to the modded 64 n8 you did. Would this sound particularly "off" with the EST? I am planning on damping the midrange and woofer 15-20 DB

JH audio Freqphase ratio is
1:1.34:2

Where 1 is woofer
And 2 is tweeter


But having length twice as woofer is not problem. The problem is tube resonances.
And bro
Resonances are really bad. I mean, really really bad.
Phase is major issue, but resonances are way bigger.

Resonances, if tuned properly, can give huge soundstage(decombing).

But having longer tube makes driver resonance hard at major resonance frequency, while minor resonances becomes dip


The best way I do is

Reverse the ratio
1 for tweeter
2 for woofers.

Woofers, due to heavy damping, wouldn't resonate in tube as much.

And shorter length tube keeps resonances at bay




The next question's answer is

Yes..

Horn deloads the pressure, but also act as coupler which helps move larger air from weaker source



See this


The point at which speaker is connected is smaller, to pressurize air, then passed to ever expanding horn, which leads the small strength high pressure air particle to vibrate large amount of particle.


You loose pressure but gain more volume of air moved. And the volume of air moved is the volume we generally hear(in log)

 

[et.haan]

Bass waves (20hz) are approx 15m, highs (20khz) are approx 15mm in free air.

I don’t think the analogy works, as a wave travels in air and the air remains (mostly) still. So no, sound does not travel faster in thinner tubes.

Sound travels faster in a denser medium eg higher air pressure or if transmitted via a solid like bones.

In smaller tubes you have less audible wall reflections, but also less air molecules. So for the same sound pressure at the ear the air molecules have to move faster (and further) compared to a larger tube, resulting in the friction on the tube walls to convert part of the sound energy into heat. I guess in a sense with really small tubes and loud volumes the water analogy starts to make sense again, but that is what we want to avoid.

The more I learn about this stuff the more complex it gets and the more questions I have. Welcome to the rabbit hole

figures... I wrote a few months back about how phase is hard to mess up at this scale, due to our dimensions. I think we can confirm that... JH may have perfect phase, but that does not mean perfect sound. Close to perfect with no resonances is better, like 64 and Tia

JH audio Freqphase ratio is
1:1.34:2

Where 1 is woofer
And 2 is tweeter


But having length twice as woofer is not problem. The problem is tube resonances.
And bro
Resonances are really bad. I mean, really really bad.
Phase is major issue, but resonances are way bigger.

Resonances, if tuned properly, can give huge soundstage(decombing).

But having longer tube makes driver resonance hard at major resonance frequency, while minor resonances becomes dip


The best way I do is

Reverse the ratio
1 for tweeter
2 for woofers.

Woofers, due to heavy damping, wouldn't resonate in tube as much.

And shorter length tube keeps resonances at bay




The next question's answer is

Yes..

Horn deloads the pressure, but also act as coupler which helps move larger air from weaker source



See this


The point at which speaker is connected is smaller, to pressurize air, then passed to ever expanding horn, which leads the small strength high pressure air particle to vibrate large amount of particle.


You loose pressure but gain more volume of air moved. And the volume of air moved is the volume we generally hear(in log)

The legend speaks, case closed

So, in solving phase, Harvey messed up with resonances. I also know that the new JH's have crazy, 4th order crossovers. Maybe they are using this to cover up resonances a little better.

That means that the EST with 4mm of tubing, like I have, will sound pretty damn good. Nice. This also makes me want to do project knockoff Tia more, with the WBFK in the snout. How about: WBFK in snout + quad RAF zobel. Would be hard to shell but would sound incredible. Amazing sound stage from the 4x RAF, but actual HF extension with the WBFK.

I also want to try a larger horn with EST, going up to 2.5ID, in 3 steps (1mmID, 2mmID, 2.5mmID) Seems like we could get even more output.

Lol, my broadcast teacher has 4 horns like that, about 5 feet tall, from a stadium. Super cool, you can hear the directivity of HF from yelling into it and moving it left and right.

 

[dhruvmeena96]

figures... I wrote a few months back about how phase is hard to mess up at this scale, due to our dimensions. I think we can confirm that... JH may have perfect phase, but that does not mean perfect sound. Close to perfect with no resonances is better, like 64 and Tia


The legend speaks, case closed

So, in solving phase, Harvey messed up with resonances. I also know that the new JH's have crazy, 4th order crossovers. Maybe they are using this to cover up resonances a little better.

That means that the EST with 4mm of tubing, like I have, will sound pretty damn good. Nice. This also makes me want to do project knockoff Tia more, with the WBFK in the snout. How about: WBFK in snout + quad RAF zobel. Would be hard to shell but would sound incredible. Amazing sound stage from the 4x RAF, but actual HF extension with the WBFK.

I also want to try a larger horn with EST, going up to 2.5ID, in 3 steps (1mmID, 2mmID, 2.5mmID) Seems like we could get even more output.

Lol, my broadcast teacher has 4 horns like that, about 5 feet tall, from a stadium. Super cool, you can hear the directivity of HF from yelling into it and moving it left and right.

The issue is...

How to match diy Tia driver phase with quad RAF..
The placement of diy Tia driver would be of utmost importance.

 

[et.haan]

The issue is...

How to match diy Tia driver phase with quad RAF..
The placement of diy Tia driver would be of utmost importance.

honestly... I dont think it matters that much. ED is very similar to the RAB, which is similar to RAF, just with the ferrofluid. I know 64 uses an ED behind the canal, with the Tia.

The split seal in the driver, around the the top half, is in a spot where sonion does not have one....Only driver I know of is the ED....I think it is a half passed ed-29689... great mids, can do everything itself, hence it being being a sole driver... RAB will be a little farther back, but so will WBFK.

I think I get an A for reverse engineering stuff from pictures lol.... even though I was initially off with the Tia driver.

However, precise placement of WBFK will be hard... and important... a degree off axis, back, or forward 1mm... uneven sound...

Will have to be crossed high to avoid the harshness that FK's have at 3khz... no dampers here. Would love a Ferrofluid damped WBFK or SWFK

Not a starter build

Anyways, 4x 2389 arrive in 2 days, same with the replacement EST
I think I will buy a "real" generic 711 coupler, tired of remaking mine... not that accurate anyways.
I have restarted/redesigned this build 4 times now.... once it was a HODVTEC+CL+ED+TWFK... LOL... now it is 38d1x, 2389D, EST

edit - by DIY tia, I dont mean lazering off side of WBFK, I mean the snoutless 30019.. theres no way I wouldn't get dust in diaphragm with the lazer, if i could even find one.

 

[sanekn]

Guys, is there a combined easy solution from sonion like GK but even better? I love my GK build and listen to it every day, but is there something more?

Or maybe even a 6-way Bellsing 10013 with zobel?