Holo Audio Red Streamer

gk2013 · Jul 22, 2023

Yes, you tried the RCA spdif output of the RED, I did not read carefully. Have you tried the RED in DDC mode? Do you still have this issue?

Julyan · Jul 22, 2023 at 8:35 AM

gk2013 said:
Yes, you tried the RCA spdif output of the RED, I did not read carefully.

it is a lot to take in

brillo · Jul 22, 2023 at 1:52 PM

Julyan said:
after testing here is a full sum-up of what i found so far:

sources:

PC
Jriver MC: Qobuz local file upnp/dlna / USB
Audirvana (trial): Qobuz Stream & local file upnp/dlna

iphone
Mconnect: Qobuz Stream upnp/dlna

next in line

Holo Audio RED
in: Ethernet or USB
out: AES/EBU - also tried Digital cinch-cinch cable (same result)

Problem
when playing the first track of the 50th anniversary album Dark Side of the Moon by Pink Floyd (from Qobuz) the DAC starts a series of clicks it would normally only make once at he start of a track when it is switching for the first time to a new sample rate. (as if the "handshake" is not landing, there is audio tho)

once the album is on its way it does not happen again (even on the first song). until i play a file of a different sample rate.

I have not tested switching from different sample rates to other songs on the album to see if it happens there too but I did hear it happen on other files while streaming random playlists from qobuz (which it does after it finishes and album unless you tell it not to in the settings).

- For now i am only aware of it happening on 24/192khz tracks.

- it happens on both direct streams PC - audirvana / iphone - Mconnect
and on the local file PC - Audirvana, Jriver

so it is not specific to "Source" PC/iphone or Stream vs Local File.

- it still happens when using USB in instead of Ethernet on the RED (Jriver)

- it still happened when changing the AES/EBU Cable to a digital spdif cinch-cinch cable.

- it Does NOT happen when i go USB direct into the yggdrasil.

When trying to use Audirva with USB to RED it started moaning about output levels and when ignored since it dont want to paly any levels it blue screened my computer. I did not change the vanillla settings !?! (are they wrong?)
I normally don't want level control on my digital signals unless i want it to automate leveling on mixed playlist using R128. (another strike for Audirvana)

so far my testing

i don't have other streamers - dacs (that support 192khz) - or AES/EBU cables to swap out

it seems unlikely to me it is a cable problem.

the ODD thing is it does not happen with direct USB into the Dac . but it does with USB into the RED. with both AES/EBU and spdif (cinch).

afaik the USBgen 5 board in my Yggy does not support Universal usb Audio but even if it did it would defeat the point of the red as reclocker.

anyone with ideas, or the possibility to test (if you have Qobuz) are welcome.

Regards,

time for some coffee

edit: forgot to mention that i have as of yet not seen this problem with the couple of 24/192khz albums i already had although i have not tested each track separately switching from a different sample rate (yet, ...maybe).

A few random thoughts:

I think I have only seen a Yggy click once when the sample rate changes, not multiple times.

Here's what Schiit says about clicking (at https://www.schiit.com/guides/dac-problems):

Clicking When Changing Sample Rates/Pausing/Etc.

1. It’s totally normal for Bifrost, Gungnir, and Yggdrasil DACs to click (mechanically, from the chassis) during normal operation. That’s the muting relay, doing its job. It clicks whenever the SPDIF datastream is interrupted.

2. If it’s clicking excessively on a Mac or PC, you can reduce it by routing system sounds to the speaker on a Mac, rather than to the Schiit USB Audio Device output. On a PC, you can set system sounds to "no sounds." In both cases, using USB largely eliminates it.

3. If it’s clicking excessively on a CD transport when in pause, the CD transport has a cycling interruption in the datastream. There’s no real fix for this, except getting another CD transport. It won’t hurt the Bifrost or Gungnir, though—the relays are rated for several million cycles.

Does the player software you're using allow you to set a resync delay? Roon, for instance allows this:

This sometimes works to fix issues like you're having. Here's what Roon says about it (at https://help.roonlabs.com/portal/en/kb/articles/audio-setup-basics#Fixed_Volume):

Resync delay

This setting is primarily used when an S/PDIF, AES, or I2S connection is involved. Oftentimes, a DAC will take a little bit of time to lock onto a new audio signal--sometimes as long as a few seconds.

This setting causes Roon to play a configurable duration of silence whenever it begins a new stream. Like the last setting, this one is a problem solver. If you find that the beginnings of songs are being cut off, or you're getting a lot of clicks and pops while your DAC locks on to an S/PDIF signal at the start of playback, try increasing this setting. 500ms is a good starting point. If that doesn't work, try gradually increasing it from there.

We default this to a very small value because it produces delays in Roon's user experience. Consider that when setting it up--unless you have an uncommonly slow DAC, settings longer than 1-2 seconds are probably not necessary.

One more thought - The Unison USB upgrade for the Yggy is awesome. In my opinion, it makes USB the best input on the DAC (which is strange, because when the Yggy first shipped, the USB input was arguably the worst). Schiit sells it for $150 (https://www.schiit.com/products/yggy-upgrades). You can have Schiit install it, but if you're even a little handy (and careful), you can do it yourself. I installed a few of them and it wasn't bad at all. There are GREAT step-by-step instructions here: https://www.superbestaudiofriends.o...l-gen-5-unison-usb-upgrade-instructions.4842/. Those are the instructions I followed, and it was really pretty easy. You just need to be careful and take your time.

Good luck!

Julyan · Jul 22, 2023

brillo said:
A few random thoughts:

I think I have only seen a Yggy click once when the sample rate changes, not multiple times.

Here's what Schiit says about clicking (at https://www.schiit.com/guides/dac-problems):

Clicking When Changing Sample Rates/Pausing/Etc.

1. It’s totally normal for Bifrost, Gungnir, and Yggdrasil DACs to click (mechanically, from the chassis) during normal operation. That’s the muting relay, doing its job. It clicks whenever the SPDIF datastream is interrupted.

2. If it’s clicking excessively on a Mac or PC, you can reduce it by routing system sounds to the speaker on a Mac, rather than to the Schiit USB Audio Device output. On a PC, you can set system sounds to "no sounds." In both cases, using USB largely eliminates it.

3. If it’s clicking excessively on a CD transport when in pause, the CD transport has a cycling interruption in the datastream. There’s no real fix for this, except getting another CD transport. It won’t hurt the Bifrost or Gungnir, though—the relays are rated for several million cycles.

Does the player software you're using allow you to set a resync delay? Roon, for instance allows this:

This sometimes works to fix issues like you're having. Here's what Roon says about it (at https://help.roonlabs.com/portal/en/kb/articles/audio-setup-basics#Fixed_Volume):

Resync delay
This setting is primarily used when an S/PDIF, AES, or I2S connection is involved. Oftentimes, a DAC will take a little bit of time to lock onto a new audio signal--sometimes as long as a few seconds.

This setting causes Roon to play a configurable duration of silence whenever it begins a new stream. Like the last setting, this one is a problem solver. If you find that the beginnings of songs are being cut off, or you're getting a lot of clicks and pops while your DAC locks on to an S/PDIF signal at the start of playback, try increasing this setting. 500ms is a good starting point. If that doesn't work, try gradually increasing it from there.

We default this to a very small value because it produces delays in Roon's user experience. Consider that when setting it up--unless you have an uncommonly slow DAC, settings longer than 1-2 seconds are probably not necessary.

One more thought - The Unison USB upgrade for the Yggy is awesome. In my opinion, it makes USB the best input on the DAC (which is strange, because when the Yggy first shipped, the USB input was arguably the worst). Schiit sells it for $150 (https://www.schiit.com/products/yggy-upgrades). You can have Schiit install it, but if you're even a little handy (and careful), you can do it yourself. I installed a few of them and it wasn't bad at all. There are GREAT step-by-step instructions here: https://www.superbestaudiofriends.o...l-gen-5-unison-usb-upgrade-instructions.4842/. Those are the instructions I followed, and it was really pretty easy. You just need to be careful and take your time.

Good luck!

Thanks for your Input

i didnt see that Shiit page before, thanks for linking it.

I chose the Red instead of a USB upgrade because i need to run a 5M USB cable to reach the yggy (shiit recomends no more than 2m).
with he RED i can use Ethernet as Connection instead and have the Signal be tidied up while Connecting to AES\EBU which was considered the best input on my Yggy. also it seemed a benefit to not connect directly to the computer. and even be able to connect directly from other devices.

the glitching only happens with certain songs that also happen to have a 192Khz sample rate but only after switching from a different sample rate. a couple of clicks is normal but here its like a salvo and sometimes spread out like 30- 40 sec into the song. some songs/albums are completely fine. will never glitch. and for example if i would put The 50th anniversary Version (qobuz) of Dark side of the moon on repeat when the first song would start again it will not glitch. but when i start that song coming from a different sample rate it will.

I'll have a look if is something like resync delay is present in Jriver. . but like i said it not jsut in the start of the track but sometimes up to 30-40 sec so not sure a couple sec mute would help.
Jriver i can only use for local files and the problems so far were mostly with streams and files from Qobuz that i'm streaming using the Audirvana trial

im a bit Warry to play around with settings in Audirvana since when i simply tried connection to the Red via USB earlier today it BSOD'd my PC after warning That 0db was to loud. (When 0 DB literally should mean no change in volume and was the vanilla setting)
audirvana really feels a bit like a beta tbh.

anyway more experimenting probably tomorrow

cheers!

mantraone · Jul 22, 2023 at 4:25 PM

doitttt said:
very effective for removing jitter, effect is like an optocoupler.
build a usbisolator.
cost 100 dollars.
from laptop to su6 or su2 or gustard u18 and holo red
https://www.mouser.dk/datasheet/2/609/eval_adum4165_4166_ug_2027-2934912.pdf

who make comparision with Gustard U18 and Holo Red as a DDC?

Julyan · Jul 22, 2023 at 5:45 PM

mantraone said:
who make comparision with Gustard U18 and Holo Red as a DDC?

Goldensound Measurements
RED
Singxer SU-6 DDC
Gustard U18

kumar402 · Jul 22, 2023 at 5:57 PM

Julyan said:
Goldensound Measurements
RED
Singxer SU-6 DDC
Gustard U18

There is a good discussion on other site in the URD thread on how a cleaner looking spectrum might give better result in subjective listening then a singular Jitter number.

doitttt · Jul 23, 2023

the ps jitter numbers say, nothing.
holo red or gustard u18 and singxer su6.
what you have to notice is how clean the sound source is, whether sacd or flac or wav files
or streaming from the internet, as I said crap in crap out,
whether holo red or gustard u18.
it depends on who is listening, from person to person.
can tell, Audiophilleo has the lowest ps jitter numbers.
I did a listening test, with Audiophilleo.
up against gustard u18 and sotm dX-USB HD
there is no difference between them.
time has passed, old usb dcc
I listened on neumann 310a studio monitor
they reveal everything in the music
dac gustard a26 too
he next thing i want to try
https://aoshida-audio.com/products/musician-pisces
musician-pisces have optocouplers as Digital Isolation
want to hear about that influence on the sound
as said optocoupler has no noise on usb

Dandoudou · Jul 23, 2023 at 2:56 PM

Julyan said:
so far i see that best desktop integration is with Roon or Audirvana but for hte moment i'm not looking for more subscriptions.

will check out Jplay ... oh noes more subscribtions

There's another option.
Run Minimserver or Plex Server for your local files. Both are free.
And run Lumin on your phone or tablet.
With Lumin you can both stream your local files, and stream Qobuz.

blackhawk11 · Jul 23, 2023 at 9:23 PM

I have read most of this thread over the course of the last 4 months. I have forgot some that I have learned as it has been on and off, and sometime in the middle of the night... (terrible habit). Very helpful.
I received my red about a month ago. It is feeding my May into my Serene.
I am using USB out to MAY as I feel the May's treatment of USB can likely not be beat by any other connection method (and I am fan of I2S - as former Denafrips DDC/DAC guy). Enjoying the streamer thus far. Great sound - terrible manual.

A few quesitons as I can't seem to find...

What is Output device : Holo Audio UAC2.0 Gen 2 Enhanced? And should i be using it?
What is the USB redirector?

Thanks kindly.

blackhawk11 · Jul 25, 2023 at 10:26 PM

Bueller? ....Bump

cj.g · Jul 26, 2023 at 1:40 AM

Red is working flawlessly on my Roon, but recently some usage of Spotify connect for some PodCast that i am interested ran me into an issue that i couldn't resolve. Whenever I finished my Spotify session (I do disconnect the Red from Spotify connect) and return to Roon, it always have an error "Failed to open audio device", and I need to restart the Red to make it work again with Roon, anyone experienced this and if there's a fix around this?

Red is on latest firmware, connected to Holo DAC via USB out (I've tried Coax out too), but both interface output consistently replicate the issue once Spotify Connect used.

Love to get some feedback here

Julyan · Jul 26, 2023

Dandoudou said:
There's another option.
Run Minimserver or Plex Server for your local files. Both are free.
And run Lumin on your phone or tablet.
With Lumin you can both stream your local files, and stream Qobuz.

I already use Jriver for local files was merely looking for a way to stream qobuz from the pc since Jriver does not support Qobuz.. tho a better streamer than Mconnect would be nice also for portables.

gk2013 said:
Yes, you tried the RCA spdif output of the RED, I did not read carefully. Have you tried the RED in DDC mode? Do you still have this issue?

sorry i read over the 2nd part. yes i connected with usb instead of Ethernet andit still did it

is the latest OS release : 2023.04.15 ?

I tried connecting on the USB in of the yggy but i'm not sure if that is supposed to work with non computer (with driver) connections on the GEN 5 USB board.f
I heard Music but also a horrible popping/clicking sound. not good. but again maybe it is not supposed to work in the first place. seems the dleted most of the gen 5 References on the Shiit site

so after expermienting some more using the 5m supra cable that i was using from my computer from the dac.

i noticed the ygrasil showing up in the selecter and in the USB director.

my choices are

hollo audio UAC2.0 Gen2 - RED

Yggdrasil gen 5

so if I understand it correctly the first entry point to the internal AES3 outputs?

and i assume the seccond is the USB output? (confusing the target is called the source)

hollo audio UAC2.0 Gen2 - RED
Yggdrasil gen 5

after realizing to always SAVE&REBOOT in that order

when selecting Yggy, all i was able to get is a sound like "White noise" this time not even music with pops and clicks.

according to the shiit site gen 5 usb should be UAC2 compliant.

well for the moment i'm clueless is USB card no good? (works fine with the pc) i have no other devices to test on (dacs, streamer)

:cooking:

EMINENT · Jul 26, 2023 at 1:42 PM

blackhawk11 said:
I have read most of this thread over the course of the last 4 months. I have forgot some that I have learned as it has been on and off, and sometime in the middle of the night... (terrible habit). Very helpful.
I received my red about a month ago. It is feeding my May into my Serene.
I am using USB out to MAY as I feel the May's treatment of USB can likely not be beat by any other connection method (and I am fan of I2S - as former Denafrips DDC/DAC guy). Enjoying the streamer thus far. Great sound - terrible manual.

A few quesitons as I can't seem to find...

What is Output device : Holo Audio UAC2.0 Gen 2 Enhanced? And should i be using it?
What is the USB redirector?

Thanks kindly.

Hello.

Output depends on which version of USB your May has. If it's the latest one, you should be using 2.1.
USB redirector, I have not found a use for in my setup so maybe someone else who has can follow up. It was discussed earlier here: https://www.head-fi.org/threads/holo-audio-red-streamer.965665/page-66#post-17583642

Julyan · Jul 26, 2023

EMINENT said:
Hello.

Output depends on which version of USB your May has. If it's the latest one, you should be using 2.1.
USB redirector, I have not found a use for in my setup so maybe someone else who has can follow up. It was discussed earlier here: https://www.head-fi.org/threads/holo-audio-red-streamer.965665/page-66#post-17583642

I'm not using a Holo DAC but a Shiit Yggdrasil.

I believe the "hollo audio UAC2.0 Gen2 - RED" refers to the use of all the AES3 outputs.

the re-director i don't think its functions for whatver the purpose is. all i know what ever you select as output device (should probably be read as target device) cannot be selected as re-director

so in the linked post he say that you can use the streamer to USB out while using the USB in to the AES3 outputs.

so basically separating streamer and ddc....

not sure when you would want that.maybe if you have to much gear...

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