[linuxworks]

Quote:

Originally Posted by majkel /img/forum/go_quote.gif No chance that op-amp based amps can compete true hi-end

snob!

that's one of the things WRONG with 'high end' audio.

fwiw, I just built an 'op amp based' M3 and its every bit as good sounding as the b22 I also have. in fact, the m3 has a lower (noticeably) noise floor. I may even like it better.

even though 'the masters' seem to think that's not possible.

 

[LeMat]

Quote:

Originally Posted by AtomikPi /img/forum/go_quote.gif If you have it built, price varies wildly based on parts - two boxes or one, attenuator or pot, fancy case or standard, boutique parts (waste of money) or stock, profit margin of your builder. Price varies between under $1000 for a bare bones DIY to above $2000 for a higher end build.

Thanks ! That gives me an idea on how much cost this really intriguing amp. Any recommandations on who are the best "builders" ?
Also, can we say the B22 is really a league above the competition ?


Quote:

Originally Posted by majkel /img/forum/go_quote.gif No chance that op-amp based amps can compete true hi-end so I think we can put aside Jan Meier's production, with all those lowly LM6171 inside.

Could you elaborate on this ?? I must say I'm not really up to speed in regards of the different designs and how they compare to each others...

 

[argentum]

Quote:

No chance that op-amp based amps can compete true hi-end

SPL Phonitor and Auditor use 120 volt opamps. Do you really think that these 2 amps doesn't qualify as high end ss amps !?

 

[applegd]

Quote:

Originally Posted by vcoheda /img/forum/go_quote.gif HeadRoom Balanced Max with Max Module, Max DAC and Alps RK50 is a nice beginner rig.

Really? You must be a millionaire.

 

[atothex]

Quote:

Originally Posted by linuxworks /img/forum/go_quote.gif snob! that's one of the things WRONG with 'high end' audio. fwiw, I just built an 'op amp based' M3 and its every bit as good sounding as the b22 I also have. in fact, the m3 has a lower (noticeably) noise floor. I may even like it better. even though 'the masters' seem to think that's not possible.

You mean people like amb? Did you go and berate him for designing such a garbage discrete "reference" amp?

 

[linuxworks]

I have both the b22 and m3. no one said ANYTHING about garbage. you can try to put words into my mouth but I'll call you on it each time you try that stunt.

what I DID say is that a sufficient amount of overkill is all you need. and its not a discrete vs op-amp war. there's nothing at all wrong with the performance of op-amp based amps.

b22 meets the need for high end but that does not mean that other models don't also meet the same standard of 'high end'.

 

[atothex]

Just a tiny bit of hyperbole, buddy.

I've heard both and can't agree that they're on the same plane. M^3 is probably better than a lot of "high end" posers sure, but I don't consider it true top tier. This may or may not be the opamps; I don't really care. What I do know is I wouldn't pay more than an M^3 for a non-discrete amp.

 

[majkel]

Quote:

Originally Posted by linuxworks /img/forum/go_quote.gif snob! that's one of the things WRONG with 'high end' audio. fwiw, I just built an 'op amp based' M3 and its every bit as good sounding as the b22 I also have. in fact, the m3 has a lower (noticeably) noise floor. I may even like it better. even though 'the masters' seem to think that's not possible.

Thanks for the info that the B22 sounds kinda M3. It means neither is hi-end. They don't sound different due to the same designer and global feedback loops. Regarding the Corda - I saw almost every model from this series uses LM6171 or LM6172 - not sure. If you put this chip, and many other chip op-amps in a truly hi-end signal chain, you will have a bottleneck where this kind of op-amp is used. What chips do you use in the M^3? As well as when you use a long global feeback loop in a solid state or hybrid design, it adds a specific effect which might be useful in moderate systems but is a false addition due to signal running around a long route to correct it's distortions but in fact adds overshoots, ringing or delays in pulse response. In other words, the signal is distorted, mainly due to intermodulation.

 

[johnwmclean]

linuxworks, to be fair your beta22 is only a 2 channel passive ground configuration, I hardly think it warrants the tag of 'overkill'. It's highly likely the M3 is similar in performance from an audible standpoint.
I've owned a balanced M3 and balanced Beta22, the Beta22 is superior by a long, long way.

 

[FallenAngel]

As for 2-channel vs 3-channel Beta22 running form the same Sigma22 supply, I'd say most would be VERY hard-pressed to even tell them apart.

As for M^3 not being "high-end enough for you" because it uses opamps, with all due diligence, have a real listen first, perhaps with decent opamps like AD825 or perhaps LME49710 and point out any "high-end" amp you think can match it. Within a "reasonable excess" budget compared to the M^3.

I do think my balanced Beta22 was better than the previous balanced M3 (definitely a little inefficient use of board space) and I do think my previous 3-channel Beta22 was better than my previous 3-channel M3, but that's not to say they aren't both great amps or that they can't compete with each other in terms of how they sound.

 

[tomb]

Quote:

Originally Posted by majkel /img/forum/go_quote.gif Thanks for the info that the B22 sounds kinda M3. It means neither is hi-end. They don't sound different due to the same designer and global feedback loops. Regarding the Corda - I saw almost every model from this series uses LM6171 or LM6172 - not sure. If you put this chip, and many other chip op-amps in a truly hi-end signal chain, you will have a bottleneck where this kind of op-amp is used. What chips do you use in the M^3? As well as when you use a long global feeback loop in a solid state or hybrid design, it adds a specific effect which might be useful in moderate systems but is a false addition due to signal running around a long route to correct it's distortions but in fact adds overshoots, ringing or delays in pulse response. In other words, the signal is distorted, mainly due to intermodulation.

Sorry, AMB doesn't need any defense from me - but this is just pure BS. Anyone can look at the scope results for these two amps:
The β22 Stereo Amplifier
The M³ Stereo Headphone Amplifier
Please - show us where the overshoot, ringing, or delays exist?

 

[majkel]

It was about global feedback loop in general. You can still see some typical closed-loop behavior in those waveforms, though, i.e. slew rate, slight overshoot. There is also something that I really don't like about the B22 - 8 CRD's per channel. Sure it decreases the part count but it's more expensive than use of a JFET/resitor pairs or JFET cascodes.

I can agree with all of you if we decide hi-end begins at some level. I don't know where it is exactly. Has anybody compared the B22 or other well known DIY SS amp to RudiStor's? Which model does it compete?

 

[LeMat]

Quote:

Originally Posted by majkel /img/forum/go_quote.gif .... I don't know where it is exactly. Has anybody compared the B22 or other well known DIY SS amp to RudiStor's? Which model does it compete?

It's a good question (but why only rudistor ?)... but watch out for the answers wich can be biased because of its DIY nature. I mean, if I was able to achieve such a project, I would probably be proud enough to skew my judgment and favor my own realization

 

[majkel]

LeMat, I agree with you, without expanding the justification.

You have some Sugden Headmaster, CEC HD53, Luxman P-1 as well. No idea where it places itself. The RP-010 is quad power supply driven and you can see the interior. Is it possible to achieve this level of craftmanship with a DIY kit assembly? Maybe.

 

[linuxworks]

Quote:

Originally Posted by johnwmclean /img/forum/go_quote.gif linuxworks, to be fair your beta22 is only a 2 channel passive ground configuration, I hardly think it warrants the tag of 'overkill'.

the thing can sink serious current into spkrs and not break a sweat. the only thing missing is the ground buffer that you get when you run balanced OR 3ch mode. I'm not a big fan of stereo separation (I listen to speakers that sit in a real-world room and have natural crossfeed; getting 1000db sep is a red herring, imho, and is totally unnecessary).

Quote:

It's highly likely the M3 is similar in performance from an audible standpoint. I've owned a balanced M3 and balanced Beta22, the Beta22 is superior by a long, long way.

its design is superior but I'm not sure the sound is.

to me, beyond a certain level, throwing 'more' at a problem does not solve the problem any more. once its solved, its solved

the b22 fully solves the problem but so does the m3, for phones.

I know that MOST of diy is about over-over-overkill. tangent said it pretty well, something to the effect of 'professional products often are designed to JUST meet their needs but DIY often just goes 'farther than needed' to ensure that you've covered you bases'. rather than knowing how much 'overkill' you need, DIYers just throw the whole kitchen sink at the problem. that way they know they have overdesigned things but its not really the *elegant* way to solve the problem.

is it elegant to drive a sherman tank to the supermarket to pick up groceries? sure, it will work and you'll get there and back, but its a bit obscene in how overblown that solution is.

I sometimes (hmm, often) feel that way about diy approaches.

I don't hear any problems when I listen to my b22 (other than some slight floor noise level) but with the m3, I have ZERO complaints. I just can't find a single thing to complain about on the m3, especially the noise. I'm gobsmacked how clean the signal is from this supposed mid-fi amp.

high end, to me, is when you can't really complain about the sound. I think I'm at that point with the gamma2 and m3. I can't find A SINGLE THING to complain about. that's saying something