[Nerull]

The not knowing why is why it helps to be well-voiced in electronic and audio design.

Go ahead and spend time with your family, it's a good thing. We're talking about audio though.

This is a forum for the obsessive, those who want the best. If you don't want that, that's fine. But imposing that on others, is not fine.

This isn't just about audiophile rants, it's about "other side" rants as well. They're both terrible, and both lined with motive. This is the science forum, not the rant forum. And not the peddle nonsense forum.

In the other thread, some guy opened up a Theta box and found an Oppo. Eye-opening, maybe. Science, it is not. Probably just to get a rise out of people. This thread was most likely made for that same purpose.

~Thomas

 

[iriverdude]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ruffle /img/forum/go_quote.gif What a headache. Room treatment. Then spending thousands, throwing it away, spend it again until find that one. Not knowing why just trusting ears. Probably like iriverdude throwing rational and the fact everyone suffers from placebo effects in the trash bin. If this is what it takes, I think I'll remain blissfully happy with an "ordinary" system. Seems much less headache and probably live longer without the stress. Rather just go outside and leave the awesome AV Pre-Amp and room treatments behind and go for a jog or spend some time with family friends on a hiking trip. And I'll hug my "Japanese" sounding system and say yay, I can enjoy movies still without stress or worry. What a massive headache I have now, jeesh. This thread is worse than the hifi projection systems thread I read a few days ago. At least those threads actually had some factual data and interesting information, this is just another typical audiophile rant with nothing substantial but it sounds better and I am better than you. Also Steve or William whatever your name is, it seems you have been busy asking this same question in various audio forums. Why not try posing this question to professionals rather than AV enthusiasts or hobbyists. I think it's impossible to get an objective opinion from forums of communities of that type.

Yawn. Many people buy home theatres including families, you don't have to go high end, and even if you do so what? You don't need to spend thousands on room treatment either, a home can be a living room and a home cinema it just needs a bit of thought. That doesn't mean you have to have bass traps either.

 

[SB]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ruffle Also Steve or William whatever your name is, it seems you have been busy asking this same question in various audio forums. Why not try posing this question to professionals rather than AV enthusiasts or hobbyists. I think it's impossible to get an objective opinion from forums of communities of that type.

Do you have any forums in mind?

Quote:

Originally Posted by Nerull This is a forum for the obsessive, those who want the best. If you don't want that, that's fine. But imposing that on others, is not fine. This isn't just about audiophile rants, it's about "other side" rants as well. They're both terrible, and both lined with motive. This is the science forum, not the rant forum. And not the peddle nonsense forum. In the other thread, some guy opened up a Theta box and found an Oppo. Eye-opening, maybe. Science, it is not. Probably just to get a rise out of people. This thread was most likely made for that same purpose.

What is the "best"? Since this is the science froum why then can the question not be answered, I have the pictures and the designs in plain view but so far the golden ear high enders have not said anything.

As far as theta charging $5000 for a $500 oppo did that some how spoil your view on theta digital?

 

[Nerull]

Quote:

Originally Posted by SB /img/forum/go_quote.gif As far as theta charging $5000 for a $500 oppo did that some how spoil your view on theta digital?

It didn't spoil my view on anything, thank you. I build all of my stuff. I know more than half of that stuff is garbage. Knowledge and saved money is two-fold.

Quote:

What is the "best"? Since this is the science froum why then can the question not be answered, I have the pictures and the designs in plain view but so far the golden ear high enders have not said anything.

We're not all golden-ear hi-end audiophools, mind you. What is the best is a silly open-ended question, considering everyone's sonic taste is different.

And as I expected, you were deliberately targeting "high enders" for a response to your finding. You didn't want any scientific response. You wanted to see them try to refute the evidence. Your charlatan tactics don't fool me, you just want to get some feathers ruffled.

~Thomas

 

[SB]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Nerull /img/forum/go_quote.gif And as I expected, you were deliberately targeting "high enders" for a response to your finding. You didn't want any scientific response. You wanted to see them try to refute the evidence. Your charlatan tactics don't fool me, you just want to get some feathers ruffled. ~Thomas

And who else would I "target" other then the owners and companies of this high end gear?

 

[Nerull]

This is the science forum, not your drop off for unmasking a company's frauds, as deceptive as they may be.

By targets, I meant your target audience. What do you hope to accomplish here? I doubt companies will post here about it...and most owners don't have the knowledge / equipment to really dive into these things.

What have you found out about high-end vs low-end processing? How does hardware implementation reflect in output sound? This isn't simple stuff, really. What other methods (besides a DBT) would you propose? I exclude the DBT, as the validity is a source of contention amongst the groups, and I'm certain there are other methods of figuring out which sounds better via measurement.

Comparison of two systems by signal combination (filtering the common-mode, so to speak) and seeing what comes out? Setting up a microphone in the middle of a room and, keeping all else constant, switching between two receivers playing music and recording the results of both? Simulating the human ear with a microphone?

Just some food for thought.

~Thomas

 

[TheAudioDude]

I'm having a hard time understanding this thread...

To say that high-end electronics are the same as low-end electronics could be analogous to saying that a Ferrari is the same thing as a Ford Escort. I think this sums up the thread pretty well: "Why does the Ferrari drive better and go faster? Well, it just does. No, that's subjective..."

I don't think the OP understands anything about electronics, other than the fact that they run on smoke and they fail when the smoke is let out.

Sure, sound quality is subjective to an extent, but believe it or not, there really is a science and understanding behind electronics. Same goes for headphones. Why one headphone sounds better than another isn't just "the way it is", it's because of the engineering that went into that headphone to make it perform the way it does.

Same for speakers (as a side note). For example, if you can tell me that there's no difference between a speaker in a tuned wood enclosure and a speaker in an over-sized shoe box, then you might want to go educate yourself before you make threads like this.

A crappy low-end receiver will do things differently to the audio signal that's fed into it, compared to a high-end receiver. If all electronics were the same, we'd only have one company for each product. Do you also mean to tell me that Intel's CPUs are the same exact thing as AMD's CPUs? Maybe to an average consumer they will be the same component, but to someone who actually understands the product, it will be completely different. So actually, maybe you are right. Maybe it is all subjective. The people who don't know anything prefer low-end equipment and the educated ones prefer high-end equipment... that's just the way it is because it's all the same and people like to spend more money to make themselves feel better.

 

[SB]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Nerull This is the science forum, not your drop off for unmasking a company's frauds, as deceptive as they may be. By targets, I meant your target audience. What do you hope to accomplish here? I doubt companies will post here about it...and most owners don't have the knowledge / equipment to really dive into these things. What have you found out about high-end vs low-end processing? How does hardware implementation reflect in output sound? This isn't simple stuff, really. What other methods (besides a DBT) would you propose? I exclude the DBT, as the validity is a source of contention amongst the groups, and I'm certain there are other methods of figuring out which sounds better via measurement. Comparison of two systems by signal combination (filtering the common-mode, so to speak) and seeing what comes out? Setting up a microphone in the middle of a room and, keeping all else constant, switching between two receivers playing music and recording the results of both? Simulating the human ear with a microphone? Just some food for thought.

And in a science forum would someone not be able to tell me if one design was better then the other based on photo's? What other measurement's do you want to see, since the high end processors don't measure better based on the measurements that we have would it really matter if we tested something else?

Quote:

Originally Posted by TheAudioDude I'm having a hard time understanding this thread... To say that high-end electronics are the same as low-end electronics could be analogous to saying that a Ferrari is the same thing as a Ford Escort. I think this sums up the thread pretty well: "Why does the Ferrari drive better and go faster? Well, it just does. No, that's subjective..."

Irrelevant since everything about a car like audio is measureable.

Quote:

Originally Posted by TheAudioDude I don't think the OP understands anything about electronics, other than the fact that they run on smoke and they fail when the smoke is let out.

So far high end audio and its users are looking as such since no one can say what is better.

Quote:

Originally Posted by TheAudioDude Sure, sound quality is subjective to an extent, but believe it or not, there really is a science and understanding behind electronics. Same goes for headphones. Why one headphone sounds better than another isn't just "the way it is", it's because of the engineering that went into that headphone to make it perform the way it does. Same for speakers (as a side note). For example, if you can tell me that there's no difference between a speaker in a tuned wood enclosure and a speaker in an over-sized shoe box, then you might want to go educate yourself before you make threads like this.

What engineering is better in the high end processors?

Quote:

Originally Posted by TheAudioDude A crappy low-end receiver will do things differently to the audio signal that's fed into it, compared to a high-end receiver. If all electronics were the same, we'd only have one company for each product.

Such as?

Quote:

Originally Posted by TheAudioDude Do you also mean to tell me that Intel's CPUs are the same exact thing as AMD's CPUs? Maybe to an average consumer they will be the same component, but to someone who actually understands the product, it will be completely different. So actually, maybe you are right. Maybe it is all subjective. The people who don't know anything prefer low-end equipment and the educated ones prefer high-end equipment... that's just the way it is because it's all the same and people like to spend more money to make themselves feel better.

Again everything about a CPU is measureable and understood.

 

[iriverdude]

Quote:

Irrelevant since everything about a car like audio is measureable.

Can a computer tell you which exhaust note is the most awesome?

Steve have you ever heard a high end av pre-amp, or are you just rolling and jealous that you can't afford one so just have to settle with lowest model from Sony or such like?

When I changed from two Dolby Digital decoders the sound quality was obvious. It's getting boring that you haven't actually demoed and asking us to prove they sound better. You know what they do, I think I'll put on another album.

 

[HD-5000]

I'm not even positive that when level-matched, anyone can really hear the difference between an extremely expensive Krell/Mark Levinson/Lexicon processor and a lower-end unit from Denon, Yamaha, etc.

In fact, I would imagine that overall, the mainstream receiver brands would deliver SUPERIOR sound to that overpriced **** for having the latest features and EQ technologies like Audyssey.

My opinion stands until DBT tests prove otherwise.

Quote:

Originally Posted by iriverdude /img/forum/go_quote.gif Can a computer tell you which exhaust note is the most awesome? Steve have you ever heard a high end av pre-amp, or are you just rolling and jealous that you can't afford one so just have to settle with lowest model from Sony or such like? When I changed from two Dolby Digital decoders the sound quality was obvious. It's getting boring that you haven't actually demoed and asking us to prove they sound better. You know what they do, I think I'll put on another album.

Those improvements in sound quality are all in your head.

 

[iriverdude]

rofl I've owned Denon, Harmon Kardon, and Lexicon av pre-amps/processors and all sound different. The Denon was the worst. What have you done, just read a few reviews and come up with this conclusion? Owned or used a few Lexicons, DC-2 V4, MC-1 V4 and MC-8. Mates got a Rotel av pre-amp that was crap.

On another forum someone changed from a Lexicon MC-12 to Onkyo 888? pre-amp, the new one with onboard HD decoding. He said the Onkyo had inferior sound quality.

Also owned couple of Yamaha AV amps, again inferior to the processing side on Lexicon. It's impossible to do DBT with my own gear as it takes about 20 minutes to change it over, and of course I know which unit is plugged in.

 

[HD-5000]

Quote:

Originally Posted by iriverdude /img/forum/go_quote.gif rofl I've owned Denon, Harmon Kardon, and Lexicon av pre-amps/processors and all sound different.

Prove it. Scientific evidence is against you. I'm positive that your claim that they all sound different would fall like a house of cards in a properly-conducted DBT.

Quote:

The Denon was the worst. What have you done, just read a few reviews and come up with this conclusion?

I put as much stock into equipment reviews as much as your kool-aid. Post measurements and DBT results and I'll be interested.

Quote:

On another forum someone changed from a Lexicon MC-12 to Onkyo 888? pre-amp, the new one with onboard HD decoding. He said the Onkyo had inferior sound quality.

That's nice.

 

[iriverdude]

This is getting boring.

It's strange how my brother says the MC-1 is superior sounding to the Denon and HK as he's taken my old gear. I've actually owned stuff, you know what this thread is about. Have you?

Prove it that low end Denons sound the same as a £10,000 Lexicon.

What gear have you owned? Come on answer it.

Can't you make your own judgement? Do you need a sound engineer to tell you Grado PS1000 sound better than RS-60's, otherwise you won't believe it?

 

[HD-5000]

Okay. So you've owned expensive gear. As far as I'm concerned, you like to throw your money away. And you're an insecure person and not to mention, a showoff.

The burden of proof is on YOU. Show me that your overpriced, underengineered toys sound better. Show me frequency response, THD v power, and channel separation graphs. And if there are measurable differences, would they be audible? Probably not. Sorry if I'm confusing you. This is the science forum, after all.

Your subjective opinions are worthless. Your aural memory is worse than worthless. In fact, they mislead you. Your mind just can't wrap itself around the fact that spending 10X more than you have to doesn't really improve performance.

And by the way, I own a NAD C370 integrated amplifier, a Denon AVR-3805, and an Onkyo SR-606. Sorry, to be honest, I can't hear much of a difference. Certainly not in the processing. Okay, the Denon sounds better at high volume because the Onkyo simply doesn't put out as much power.

 

[iriverdude]

Likewise show me tests to show graphs, THD, etc yours sound worse. Typical response- you don't have expensive measuring equipment, until you can show me those, then the only method is testing by ear.

No way your av amps can power my speakers either

If you can't hear the different between that NAD or those AV amps you must be deaf or speakers not revealing enough.

My Lexicons were not that expensive I did not buy them new, and I wouldn't pay RRP either. Roughly the same as a upper range av amp. I can swap my amps around if one stops working, with av amp if one goes the whole system is useless. You'll need to get the av amp serviced and won't have any audio till it comes back.

Quote:

Your mind just can't wrap itself around the fact that spending 10X more than you have to doesn't really improve performance.

And your mind can't wrap around that shock horror higher end equipment sounds better than budget equipment. If you think a £150 Sony av amp used as a processor sounds exactly like a Lexicon MC-12 you're a fool.