[SB]

Quote:

Originally Posted by PhilS What would be the opposite? That the lower end unit sounded better? Or that they all sound the same?

That the lower end unit sounded better, just think of the outcry if stereophile or another high end magizine did a review about a denon receiver sounding better then a theta digital casablanca or krell 707, I wonder how many people would cancel their subscription.

Quote:

Originally Posted by PhilS Steve, I'm curious, are you the same SB from AVS Forum? I remember having a series of discussions on AVS Forum with you and others many years ago (around 2001 or so, I think) about cables and other things, and I seem to recall that at that time you were one of the strongest proponents for the subjectivist point of view. Am I remembering correctly? If so, you appear to have changed your views, although maybe I'm simplifying things too much. Anyway, I'm just curious.

Sent you a PM.

 

[PhilS]

Quote:

Originally Posted by SB /img/forum/go_quote.gif That the lower end unit sounded better, just think of the outcry if stereophile or another high end magizine did a review about a denon receiver sounding better then a theta digital casablanca or krell 707, I wonder how many people would cancel their subscription.

In your earlier post, you said "someone." Whether a magazine like Stereophile would publish a review of the sort you talked about is quite a different issue, as other considerations are at play (obviously). In any event, there have been many, many reports on this forum of people preferring the cheaper cable, DAC, CD player, etc. I can give you one or two examples from my own experience.

 

[iriverdude]

My old Denon processor is miles behind even Lexicon DC-2 in sound quality. It just sounds brash, typical Japanese sound.

 

[twylight]

Steve,

I think other considerations come into play before the processor has any serious bearing aside from being pretty or bigger.

Room treatments and source material configured correctly are going to make more of a difference than which sticker is on front of the DSPs - if money is no object, you dropped 10-20k on room treatments, another 20 on construction and power, 300 blurays and CDs...screw it dump 10k on the processor.

Buying the processor in your finished attic with no treatments and the FOTM ID speakers is still going to suck - just can show off the gear. Nothing is more pathetic that an some ****** posting pics of his 30k rack of gear and speakers in his finished attic with not even some DIY treatments up.

This forum is full of believers by the way - i would post this on avsforum. I think 80% of the posters are in apartments and dont have the room/gear to crank it, so they are trying to feel better about headphones. Headphones are terrible compared to a decent room and rig. Details and immersion are good tho and easy on headphones...

I find a/v to be like golf...better clubs dont make you better...just like your stuff better.

 

[PhilS]

Quote:

Originally Posted by twylight /img/forum/go_quote.gif This forum is full of believers by the way - i would post this on avsforum. I think 80% of the posters are in apartments and dont have the room/gear to crank it, so they are trying to feel better about headphones. Headphones are terrible compared to a decent room and rig.

Wow, I don't what basis you have for saying 80% of the posters on Head-Fi live in apartments.

There's a ton of folks on this forum who have high-end HT systems, and a ton of folks who use headphones as one of the ways they listen to music for reasons unrelated to the size of their living quarters, their familiarity with full-size speakers, etc. And the notion that people here are trying to "feel better" about headphones is, IMO, kind of silly.

Quote:

Originally Posted by twylight /img/forum/go_quote.gif I find a/v to be like golf...better clubs dont make you better...just like your stuff better.

Uh, no offense, but I would say you don't know much about golf and modern golf equipment to make that statement -- or maybe it's just a bad analogy. Better golf clubs (e.g., compare the MOI of drivers today and 10 years ago) definitely make you better -- to some extent at least. Do you think Tom Watson would have tied for first in the British Open with golf equipment from 10 years ago?

 

[twylight]

Phils,

Most people suck enough at golf that a new driver doesnt do much for their drives as it didnt fix their swing...

Go look at some threads and the reasons WHY people are looking for headphones outside the hi-end forum.

Cost
Noise annoying roomates/wife
no room for it
rooms too small for it
temporary system while they get thru college
work system
secondary system they care alot less about (< me)

Back to the OP

Twylight says dont blow money on processors if you have bare walls.

 

[SB]

Quote:

Originally Posted by iriverdude My old Denon processor is miles behind even Lexicon DC-2 in sound quality. It just sounds brash, typical Japanese sound.

This is 100% subjective. What do you contribute to this better sound in the lexicon?

Quote:

Originally Posted by twylight Room treatments and source material configured correctly are going to make more of a difference than which sticker is on front of the DSPs - if money is no object, you dropped 10-20k on room treatments, another 20 on construction and power, 300 blurays and CDs...screw it dump 10k on the processor. Buying the processor in your finished attic with no treatments and the FOTM ID speakers is still going to suck - just can show off the gear. Nothing is more pathetic that an some ****** posting pics of his 30k rack of gear and speakers in his finished attic with not even some DIY treatments up.

I agree, its funny how people will measure their room and use technology to their advantage but when it comes to their equipment they look the other way.

Quote:

Originally Posted by twylight This forum is full of believers by the way - i would post this on avsforum.

Can't, that is an instant ban even thoe they call it audio video SCIENCE forum! The high end has too much pull around there and are very petty.

 

[PhilS]

Quote:

Originally Posted by SB /img/forum/go_quote.gif I agree, its funny how people will measure their room and use technology to their advantage but when it comes to their equipment they look the other way.

I'm don't think it's fair to say people "look the other way," nor do I think measuring one's room is comparable (either in terms of necessity or transaction costs) to conducting a thorough "objective" evaluation of why component A might sound better than component B.

Some people like to trust their ears while they also will use what measuring equipment and devices are practical and convenient to get the best sound possible. Do you really think there is something wrong with this? If I choose what receiver or processor I like based on what sounds best to me, do you really think I'm being inconsistent if I use a decibel meter to balance the sound level from the speakers?

 

[iriverdude]

Quote:

This is 100% subjective. What do you contribute to this better sound in the lexicon?

um, it sounds better than my previous av processors?

 

[PhilS]

Quote:

Originally Posted by iriverdude /img/forum/go_quote.gif um, it sounds better than my previous av processors?

I think he's looking for a specification of the physical differences between the components that would explain the differences in sound. At least, I think that's what he's looking for.

 

[SB]

Quote:

Originally Posted by PhilS I'm don't think it's fair to say people "look the other way," nor do I think measuring one's room is comparable (either in terms of necessity or transaction costs) to conducting a thorough "objective" evaluation of why component A might sound better than component B. Some people like to trust their ears while they also will use what measuring equipment and devices are practical and convenient to get the best sound possible. Do you really think there is something wrong with this? If I choose what receiver or processor I like based on what sounds best to me, do you really think I'm being inconsistent if I use a decibel meter to balance the sound level from the speakers?

But one can not trust their ears as in the placebo effect and yet at the same time these people will not take a DBT. Then why do people have to brag and cut down "inferior" equipment rather then just saying they like the sound of this over that?

Quote:

Originally Posted by iriverdude um, it sounds better than my previous av processors?

Well that's all the proof we need then, does that also mean the moon is made of cheese?

 

[PhilS]

Quote:

Originally Posted by SB /img/forum/go_quote.gif But one can not trust their ears as in the placebo effect and yet at the same time these people will not take a DBT. Then why do people have to brag and cut down "inferior" equipment rather then just saying they like the sound of this over that?

You lost me with your point about the placebo effect and DBT's. I'm not sure precisely what you're saying. Do you have to do a DBT for everything? Or only certain things? And who is supposed to be the judge regarding whether a DBT is necessary, and for what purposes?

As to someone cutting down "inferior" equipment, you need to be more specific. I'm not sure what you're referring to.

Quote:

Originally Posted by SB /img/forum/go_quote.gif Well that's all the proof we need then, does that also mean the moon is made of cheese?

So you think someone stating that their high end processor sounds better than a mid-level receiver is equivalent to saying the moon is made of cheese?

 

[twylight]

Steve,

All things being the same, buy 3-4 processors and see if you can tell. Sell the rest.

I can tell you all day long that I can tell the difference between DACs with ease - I can also tell when windoze has moved settings causing harshness or changes in the sound field...do you have to believe me? nah

I think you are taking a very shaky stance (speaker cables) and applying it to processing (not as shaky) in my opinion. Not everything in audio is gear pimping and placebo effect. People who cant tell the difference between 128kmp3 and FLAC are deaf or have bad DACs and cans. Even my wife can tell and she likes apple ear buds for the fashion statement.

The DAC I own for 2 channel music is my favorite piece of gear by far - I would pitch the rest on the for sale forum and not miss much. Can I spend 10k on a DAC and get something better? I would think so...but I doubt I will.

AV Processing is code dependent and not just the DSP from TI and some solder btw...the little chips actually do stuff and it doesnt work out of the box from TI.

DBT is a little stupid. Believers dont need it, Non believers wont take the time to do it, people on the fence arent sure if they care...the fact it even needs to be discussed invalidates it to a point. Do it yourself, post your thoughts, let people rag out your work...and resell the leftovers.

I remember some sub testing when some guy in europe bought about 25 subs (he wasnt headphone supremus getting review samples...) put some mics up and set off every car alarm in a 2 mile radius...instead of thanking him profusely for cutting thru the BS - most people ragged out his testing...not me...I bought the biggest damn sub on his list and never looked back.

Cars are great...shut up and put it on the dyno pre and post (same dyno!). Then tell us about your carbon fiber modded tubro exhaust exchange blower mod with calcium nitrate modded wiring from india that was blessed by holy water.

 

[SB]

Quote:

Originally Posted by PhilS /img/forum/go_quote.gif You lost me with your point about the placebo effect and DBT's. I'm not sure precisely what you're saying. Do you have to do a DBT for everything? Or only certain things? And who is supposed to be the judge regarding whether a DBT is necessary, and for what purposes?

If a listening test is not done blind or double blind then it does not count becuase it would be subjective.

Quote:

Originally Posted by PhilS As to someone cutting down "inferior" equipment, you need to be more specific. I'm not sure what you're referring to.

Please, the high end does nothing but cut down basic audio equipment by talking about how better their equipment is.

Quote:

Originally Posted by PhilS So you think someone stating that their high end processor sounds better than a mid-level receiver is equivalent to saying the moon is made of cheese?

Yes, because they have no proof.

 

[SB]

Quote:

Originally Posted by twylight /img/forum/go_quote.gif AV Processing is code dependent and not just the DSP from TI and some solder btw...the little chips actually do stuff and it doesnt work out of the box from TI.

If something is done different or better it is measureable.

Quote:

Originally Posted by twylight DBT is a little stupid. Believers dont need it, Non believers wont take the time to do it, people on the fence arent sure if they care...the fact it even needs to be discussed invalidates it to a point. Do it yourself, post your thoughts, let people rag out your work...and resell the leftovers.

It works just fine but when the golden ear club members fail a DBT all they do is wine about it. Remember there are several cash prizes out there for people who think they can hear a difference.