[PhilS]

Quote:

Originally Posted by SB /img/forum/go_quote.gif If a listening test is not done blind or double blind then it does not count becuase it would be subjective.

It doesn't count for who? Or for what ? Or when? You didn't answer my question. You just repeated something that sounds more or less like your own personal dogma.

Quote:

Originally Posted by SB /img/forum/go_quote.gif Please, the high end does nothing but cut down basic audio equipment by talking about how better their equipment is.

Who are you talking about? Sounds like you've got some issues with certain folks somewhere, and now you're overgeneralizing and stereotyping. I think basic audio equipment can sound very good, and I'm sure your equipment sounds great. Feel better?

Quote:

Originally Posted by SB /img/forum/go_quote.gif Yes, because they have no proof.

I see, so all statements that are made without "scientific proof" stand on equal footing, and are as absurd as saying the moon is made of cheese.

 

[SB]

Quote:

Originally Posted by PhilS /img/forum/go_quote.gif It doesn't count for who? Or for what ? Or when? You didn't answer my question. You just repeated something that sounds more or less like your own personal dogma.

A subjective opinion only counts for one person and that is the person making the subjective opinion.

Quote:

Originally Posted by PhilS Who are you talking about? Sounds like you've got some issues with certain folks somewhere, and now you're overgeneralizing and stereotyping. I think basic audio equipment can sound very good, and I'm sure your equipment sounds great. Feel better?

So you are saying that the high end does not think their equipment sounds better then a basic sony receiver?

Quote:

Originally Posted by PhilS I see, so all statements that are made without "scientific proof" stand on equal footing, and are as absurd as saying the moon is made of cheese.

Yes, if you have nothing to back up your statement then it is baseless, how can you even say something like that?

 

[PhilS]

Quote:

Originally Posted by SB /img/forum/go_quote.gif A subjective opinion only counts for one person and that is the person making the subjective opinion.

Ever have a good friend recommend a restaurant and tell you the food is really good? Did you consider his opinion of no value?

Quote:

Originally Posted by SB /img/forum/go_quote.gif So you are saying that the high end does not think their equipment sounds better then a basic sony receiver?

I don't know who the "high end" is. But assuming you mean some people who own higher end audio equipment, I'm sure many of those folks do indeed think their equipment sounds better than a basic Sony receiver. What I questioned was your assertion that "''the high end does nothing but cut down basic audio equipment by talking about how better their equipment is." That is what suggested to me that you have some "issues."

Quote:

Originally Posted by SB /img/forum/go_quote.gif Yes, if you have nothing to back up your statement then it is baseless, how can you even say something like that?

You changed your assertion here also. You started out talking about "scientific proof," or the absence of that type of proof. Now you're talking about "nothing." Using the restaurant example again, if a friend tells you a new restaurant has good food, I would assume you would agree that this does not constitute "scientific proof" of the quality of the food. Would you consider his statement, then, to be equivalent to a statement that the moon is made of cheese? Would you consider his statement to be backed up by "nothing"?

You appear to have some real intense feelings about someone or something (maybe just your agenda), but I think your emotions are clouding your logic. No offense.

 

[iriverdude]

Quote:

Originally Posted by SB So you are saying that the high end does not think their equipment sounds better then a basic sony receiver?

Bangs head on desk. Of course it sounds better than a basic Sony av receiver, it sounds better than a top end av receiver. Also the power amplifiers are so much higher quality than those inside av amplifiers. Each 2 channel amp has the same kind of PSU that's inside a top end av amplifier, and those are shared for 7 channels, plus for the audio/video switching, DSP, and other analogue/digital sections.

I've used a Denon and Harmon/Kardon surround decoders and it was superior to them. And the Denon and HK were superior to a av receiver.

Oh and it's AV receiver, not receiver. A Receiver is stereo only.

 

[anwaypasible]

wouldnt the original post be considering bit-depth in processing schemes.
surely you will never be told the truth when you purchase a receiver that sounds excellent.. most chips are all black with some lettering, the government tells you what they want you to think from there on.

depending on the features and effects.. the processors could vary quite a bit.
some compression.. or just reverb?

complicated sound processing (and multiple effects turned on at once?)
or
simple little things like reverb and echo.

maybe differences like..
doing sound processing in digital mode compared to doing sound processing in analog mode.

no doubt.. sound waves are extremely fast, and therefore the processing needs to take place just as fast.

 

[SB]

Quote:

Originally Posted by PhilS I don't know who the "high end" is. But assuming you mean some people who own higher end audio equipment, I'm sure many of those folks do indeed think their equipment sounds better than a basic Sony receiver. What I questioned was your assertion that "''the high end does nothing but cut down basic audio equipment by talking about how better their equipment is." That is what suggested to me that you have some "issues."

"Issues" but since I am correct my issue is justified.

Quote:

Originally Posted by PhilS You appear to have some real intense feelings about someone or something (maybe just your agenda), but I think your emotions are clouding your logic. No offense.

My agenda is finding proof, if you question my agenda why would you not also question the agenda of high end audio, but we already know their agenda is money from nothing.

Quote:

Originally Posted by iriverdude Bangs head on desk. Of course it sounds better than a basic Sony av receiver, it sounds better than a top end av receiver. Also the power amplifiers are so much higher quality than those inside av amplifiers. Each 2 channel amp has the same kind of PSU that's inside a top end av amplifier, and those are shared for 7 channels, plus for the audio/video switching, DSP, and other analogue/digital sections. I've used a Denon and Harmon/Kardon surround decoders and it was superior to them. And the Denon and HK were superior to a av receiver. Oh and it's AV receiver, not receiver. A Receiver is stereo only.

How does it sound better? How are the amp sections high quality? You are wrong on the power suppies since many receivers run more then one and denon runs up to 6 independant power supplies. But besides that how would the power supply affect the performance of "plus for the audio/video switching, DSP, and other analogue/digital sections." either they have power or they don't.

 

[iriverdude]

Quote:

How does it sound better?

How do Grado PS-1000 sound better than RS-60's? Because they just do if you're heard them. When I borrowed a quality stereo integrated amp and put it where the av amp was it was night and day. It wasn't placebo.

Quote:

How are the amp sections high quality?

Let's see, one of my poweramps has a higher rated PSU than a one in a av amp, and can provide clean current down to 2ohms, and still doubling that power from 4Ohm. I'd like to see a Sony budget av amplifier drive my speakers without sounding like a garbled mess of distortion. I used mid end av amp for 4ohm center and was horrible.

Quote:

denon runs up to 6 independant power supplies

6 small power supplies

Quote:

But besides that how would the power supply affect the performance of "plus for the audio/video switching, DSP, and other analogue/digital sections." either they have power or they don't.

oh dear. Components can work with fluactauting voltage/line but it's not ideal. Why do you think people move away from av amplifiers to dac/pre-amp/poweramps? Because everything is seperate and have dedicated power supplies for each section. No way a av amp can come close to a pre-power system.

It really does sound like kit jealously IMO, my gear isn't top of the line, far from it but I know it's better quality than what I used to have. Just like my subwoofer is better sounding than PC subwoofer.

 

[jsaliga]

Quote:

Originally Posted by PhilS /img/forum/go_quote.gif Ever have a good friend recommend a restaurant and tell you the food is really good?

Did you ever blame that friend when you had dinner at a restaurant he recommended and you didn't care for the food?

--Jerome

 

[fjf]

If this is a science forum, the cookie monster must be eistein

)

 

[iriverdude]

Snap

High end processors VS low end processors/receivers, hardware differences?

 

[royalcrown]

Quote:

Originally Posted by iriverdude /img/forum/go_quote.gif Snap High end processors VS low end processors/receivers, hardware differences?

Archivist

 

[SB]

Quote:

Originally Posted by iriverdude /img/forum/go_quote.gif How do Grado PS-1000 sound better than RS-60's? Because they just do if you're heard them. When I borrowed a quality stereo integrated amp and put it where the av amp was it was night and day. It wasn't placebo.

So if you can hear these "differences" why don't you take up the double blind test's that offer money if you can pick out the equipment?


Quote:

Originally Posted by iriverdude Let's see, one of my poweramps has a higher rated PSU than a one in a av amp, and can provide clean current down to 2ohms, and still doubling that power from 4Ohm. I'd like to see a Sony budget av amplifier drive my speakers without sounding like a garbled mess of distortion. I used mid end av amp for 4ohm center and was horrible.

What does this have to do with quality? Amps are easily measured on what they can and can't do.


Quote:

Originally Posted by iriverdude 6 small power supplies

What a educated response.


Quote:

Originally Posted by iriverdude oh dear. Components can work with fluactauting voltage/line but it's not ideal. Why do you think people move away from av amplifiers to dac/pre-amp/poweramps? Because everything is seperate and have dedicated power supplies for each section. No way a av amp can come close to a pre-power system.

Another science based answer, so far you have given no information or technical specs on what and why. So if we take a $30,000 lamm class A tube amp rated for 80 watts are you saying that a 140 watt denon receiver won't be able to drive a 8 ohm speaker to a higher SPL?

 

[fjf]

I can understand the cables forum is called "DBT free forum", but I wonder why oh why isn't this one called "subjectivist free forum". I would be only fair.

 

[bixby]

It seems the thread starter has already solved this never ending conundrum. Everything sounds the same....

Now perhaps you can do the same for the middle east.

I am sure you can come to a perfect solution for Israel and the Palestinians, should not be too hard. And you can show those folks who have been trying for hundreds of years how simple it is really.

 

[Ruffle]

What a headache.

Room treatment. Then spending thousands, throwing it away, spend it again until find that one. Not knowing why just trusting ears. Probably like iriverdude throwing rational and the fact everyone suffers from placebo effects in the trash bin.

If this is what it takes, I think I'll remain blissfully happy with an "ordinary" system. Seems much less headache and probably live longer without the stress. Rather just go outside and leave the awesome AV Pre-Amp and room treatments behind and go for a jog or spend some time with family friends on a hiking trip. And I'll hug my "Japanese" sounding system and say yay, I can enjoy movies still without stress or worry.

What a massive headache I have now, jeesh. This thread is worse than the hifi projection systems thread I read a few days ago. At least those threads actually had some factual data and interesting information, this is just another typical audiophile rant with nothing substantial but it sounds better and I am better than you.

Also Steve or William whatever your name is, it seems you have been busy asking this same question in various audio forums. Why not try posing this question to professionals rather than AV enthusiasts or hobbyists. I think it's impossible to get an objective opinion from forums of communities of that type.