[Bullseye]

Wow, thought this thread was dead but it has kept going on.

It is good to see that I was not alone when I criticized the way iriverude talked about his subjective opinion. And for what I see he keeps acting in a pimpish way.

ANyways as I am in the ignore list of that guy he won't be able to read this

Nicely spoken there HD-5000

 

[Neuromantic]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bullseye /img/forum/go_quote.gif Wow, thought this thread was dead but it has kept going on. It is good to see that I was not alone when I criticized the way iriverude talked about his subjective opinion. And for what I see he keeps acting in a pimpish way. ANyways as I am in the ignore list of that guy he won't be able to read this Nicely spoken there HD-5000

Nicely spoken? He's just doing a mediocre job of trolling.

 

[iriverdude]

The people who are trolling are steve, bullseye and now neuromantic. Do you have any experience using high end av processors?

I thought not.

 

[SB]

Quote:

Originally Posted by iriverdude rofl I've owned Denon, Harmon Kardon, and Lexicon av pre-amps/processors and all sound different. The Denon was the worst. What have you done, just read a few reviews and come up with this conclusion? Owned or used a few Lexicons, DC-2 V4, MC-1 V4 and MC-8. Mates got a Rotel av pre-amp that was crap. On another forum someone changed from a Lexicon MC-12 to Onkyo 888? pre-amp, the new one with onboard HD decoding. He said the Onkyo had inferior sound quality. Also owned couple of Yamaha AV amps, again inferior to the processing side on Lexicon. It's impossible to do DBT with my own gear as it takes about 20 minutes to change it over, and of course I know which unit is plugged in.

Again you do not understand what a subjective opinion is, I have shown you that the hardware used in high end audio equipment is not better then that of a mid range receiver, so where is this difference coming from?

You do understand that the processing/decoding of a DD or DTS signal is the same in all processors and receivers, right?

Quote:

Originally Posted by iriverdude Prove it that low end Denons sound the same as a £10,000 Lexicon.

I did, the hardware in the lexicons is not better.

Quote:

Originally Posted by iriverdude Likewise show me tests to show graphs, THD, etc yours sound worse. Typical response- you don't have expensive measuring equipment, until you can show me those, then the only method is testing by ear.

Most review sites offer measurements and they are no better then a basic receiver so what is your point?

Quote:

Originally Posted by iriverdude The people who are trolling are steve, bullseye and now neuromantic.

Typical response from someone who can no longer have a logical debate.

 

[iriverdude]

Quote:

You do understand that the processing/decoding of a DD or DTS signal is the same in all processors and receivers, right?

And I haven't used standard Pro-Logic, DTS or Dolby Digital decoding for years. I won't say why you can work that out yourself.

Quote:

the hardware in the lexicons is not better.

Sounds better, when my Lexicon MC-1 was in for repair I put in a Denon AVD-2000 in it's place for a week. Blech horrible sound. Have you heard a top-end av processor or just hanging in to crappy Sony av amp and don't want to listen to people in your place? I had a Yamaha av amp, I sold that model but now using another Yamaha av amp for PC system. They're ok for the money but for sound? No, they're way behind a good av processor or stereo integrated amp/dac/pre-amp/poweramp system.

Quote:

Most review sites offer measurements and they are no better then a basic receiver so what is your point?

Yes because measurements are all that's needed for good sound. A £20 DVD player tests the same as a £20,000 CD player, so must sound the same, with the best DAC's you can buy built like a tank no expense spared on matching components, PSU, connectors, pick up.

Do you actually have a clue? My system is far from high end local shop has £6K CDP and £6K integrated and have heard other similar systems, that's far more expensive than my system, well according to you measurements are similar so sound the same. lol. Doug Brady has some incredible stuff heard one system wow, probably £100,000 if not more. Mine sounds a Bose system by comparison.

Clueless.

 

[TheAudioDude]

I thought this thread was dead too, but I guess not

Anyways, I'm not sure if anyone mentioned this but it also depends on your listening equipment. A high-end receiver/amp/whatever probably won't sound much different than a low-end amp if you're using low-end speakers/headphones. You have to scale appropriately for whatever you have. If you're powering a set of Onkyo HTIB speakers with a high-end amp, I'd say it's safe to assume you won't notice a world of difference as if you were powering them with the receiver they came with.

Also about the engineering going into electronics and whatnot; there's a hell of a lot of it. Something as simple as the gain on an op-amp can change the entire output of the system. These electronics aren't just slapped together all willy nilly; there's a LOT of math behind it all. Even something as simple as adding a capacitor to eliminate a little bit of noise can go a long way... especially if that signal is being amplified to 10x or 100x it's original value. There's also the reason why people have careers as engineers in the audio electronics field, spending their whole lives learning about it. You can say the same for anything. Similar to my car analogy... would you expect something made by Toyota to perform better than a car designed by some third-world knock-off company without the proper engineering?

You're paying for the talent that went into that piece of electronics. Onkyo can tell their employees to design an amplifier but they want it to go from concept to product in less than one month. There are compromises that have to be made in order to get it out the door. Not to mention the fact that components are more often than not selected with price (rather than performance) in mind. A company will select a resistor with a 10% tolerance over one with a 1% tolerance just to save a few cents per unit made... that doesn't seem like a lot but think about it when they're producing thousands of units per week. Now a high-end company can tell their employees to design an amplifier but they can spend four months on it. This enables them to put more time into the design, review, testing, prototyping, etc. etc. which will produce a better product. This same company may also restrict all their components to specific tolerances, without pricing in mind, because they CAN charge a lot for each unit made, thus making up the difference in component cost.

It's like the CPU example. An AMD CPU might have a front-side-bus of 800MHz but the Intel could be 1333MHz. The average consumer won't ever need to care about this but in a high-end demanding application, this will make a difference. Same with hard drives. Sure, there are 15k RPM SCSI hard drives that are wicked expensive and store maybe 320GB, and there are 1.5TB 7200RPM hard drives that are much much cheaper. For the average consumer and most of the people out there (myself included), the 1.5TB is the logical option. But for a company/individual who runs a server, the 320GB is what they're going for. It's the same for audio. The average consumer just wants something conveinent, easy to use, and sounds decent. Now people on this forum only want the best, and that leads to more expensive products. If you loved movies, would you buy a cheap Olevia 40" LCD or a more expensive Pioneer 52" plasma, or would you go all-out and dedicate a room to a 150" projector?

 

[SB]

Quote:

Originally Posted by iriverdude And I haven't used standard Pro-Logic, DTS or Dolby Digital decoding for years. I won't say why you can work that out yourself.

You don't get it, DD and DTS as in the companies and that includes the new lossy and lossless codecs, what do you think "lossless" means?

Quote:

Sounds better, when my Lexicon MC-1 was in for repair I put in a Denon AVD-2000 in it's place for a week. Blech horrible sound. Have you heard a top-end av processor or just hanging in to crappy Sony av amp and don't want to listen to people in your place? I had a Yamaha av amp, I sold that model but now using another Yamaha av amp for PC system. They're ok for the money but for sound? No, they're way behind a good av processor or stereo integrated amp/dac/pre-amp/poweramp system.

Since you did not do a DBT you are just assuming, what makes the lexicon better from a design point of view? What makes the sony "crappy" as you pointed out?

Quote:

Yes because measurements are all that's needed for good sound. A £20 DVD player tests the same as a £20,000 CD player, so must sound the same, with the best DAC's you can buy built like a tank no expense spared on matching components, PSU, connectors, pick up.

But since you assume that the highend is better why would it not measure better? If they are using a superior design and better parts would that not equate to better measurements?

Quote:

Do you actually have a clue? My system is far from high end local shop has £6K CDP and £6K integrated and have heard other similar systems, that's far more expensive than my system, well according to you measurements are similar so sound the same. lol. Doug Brady has some incredible stuff heard one system wow, probably £100,000 if not more. Mine sounds a Bose system by comparison.

I have a clue but so far you have not backed up or even discussed your assumptions in a technical thought out logical way.

 

[SB]

Quote:

Originally Posted by TheAudioDude Also about the engineering going into electronics and whatnot; there's a hell of a lot of it. Something as simple as the gain on an op-amp can change the entire output of the system. These electronics aren't just slapped together all willy nilly; there's a LOT of math behind it all. Even something as simple as adding a capacitor to eliminate a little bit of noise can go a long way... especially if that signal is being amplified to 10x or 100x it's original value. There's also the reason why people have careers as engineers in the audio electronics field, spending their whole lives learning about it. You can say the same for anything. Similar to my car analogy... would you expect something made by Toyota to perform better than a car designed by some third-world knock-off company without the proper engineering?

What do cars have to do with audio? Funny since you brought up the toyota and third world analogy becuase the big companies like sony and yamaha would be toyota and the high end like theta and lexicon would be the third world. Do you just assume that theta or lexicon with a couple of engineers and a low budget would out perform a mass of engineers from sony or yamaha with a huge budget?

Quote:

You're paying for the talent that went into that piece of electronics. Onkyo can tell their employees to design an amplifier but they want it to go from concept to product in less than one month. There are compromises that have to be made in order to get it out the door. Not to mention the fact that components are more often than not selected with price (rather than performance) in mind. A company will select a resistor with a 10% tolerance over one with a 1% tolerance just to save a few cents per unit made... that doesn't seem like a lot but think about it when they're producing thousands of units per week. Now a high-end company can tell their employees to design an amplifier but they can spend four months on it. This enables them to put more time into the design, review, testing, prototyping, etc. etc. which will produce a better product. This same company may also restrict all their components to specific tolerances, without pricing in mind, because they CAN charge a lot for each unit made, thus making up the difference in component cost.

Time is irrelevant since the math and physics do not change, as I have pointed out the high end does not use better parts and they do not measure better.

Quote:

It's like the CPU example. An AMD CPU might have a front-side-bus of 800MHz but the Intel could be 1333MHz. The average consumer won't ever need to care about this but in a high-end demanding application, this will make a difference. Same with hard drives. Sure, there are 15k RPM SCSI hard drives that are wicked expensive and store maybe 320GB, and there are 1.5TB 7200RPM hard drives that are much much cheaper. For the average consumer and most of the people out there (myself included), the 1.5TB is the logical option. But for a company/individual who runs a server, the 320GB is what they're going for. It's the same for audio. The average consumer just wants something conveinent, easy to use, and sounds decent. Now people on this forum only want the best, and that leads to more expensive products. If you loved movies, would you buy a cheap Olevia 40" LCD or a more expensive Pioneer 52" plasma, or would you go all-out and dedicate a room to a 150" projector?

Irrelevant, if you can prove by fact that the high end is better please post it up since that would end this discussion.

 

[iriverdude]

Quote:

Irrelevant, if you can prove by fact that the high end is better please post it up since that would end this discussion.

I don't need to "prove" anything, different components sound different, a low end av amp generally sounds crap compared to high end av pre-amp and poweramps. If you really think a £200 sony av amp sounds exactly the same as a £10,000 av pre-power you're delusional and/or deaf. Or maybe you just don't want to admit what you have isn't very good.

Prove to me that mature Irish Cheddar tastes nicer than low fat, economy cheese.

Quote:

But since you assume that the highend is better why would it not measure better? If they are using a superior design and better parts would that not equate to better measurements?

Nope. A £20 DVD player and a £5000 CD player will measure virtually identical, and on paper you wouldn't know which sounds better. To choose the £20 DVD player because it has a lower THD or higher STN is stupid. Listen to them.

I grow tired talking to you, have you actually gone to a highend shop or just look at specifications?


Quote:

You don't get it, DD and DTS as in the companies and that includes the new lossy and lossless codecs, what do you think "lossless" means?

I do get it, I use Logic 7 ontop of Pro-Logic, Dolby Digital & DTS. If you don't know what Logic-7 is about I suggest you go and have a listen. There is a huge difference in sound between the 5 surround decoders/av pre-amps I've owned in the past. They don't sound all the same. (wait for you to come back with "prove it" reply) yawn.

 

[SB]

Quote:

Originally Posted by iriverdude /img/forum/go_quote.gif I don't need to "prove" anything, different components sound different, a low end av amp generally sounds crap compared to high end av pre-amp and poweramps. If you really think a £200 sony av amp sounds exactly the same as a £10,000 av pre-power you're delusional and/or deaf. Or maybe you just don't want to admit what you have isn't very good.

So all those double blind test are wrong? If you can not prove by measurements what sounds better then how does one design an audio component, is it just random with a bunch of parts thrown together until it works.

Quote:

Prove to me that mature Irish Cheddar tastes nicer than low fat, economy cheese.

Irrelevant and this just shows how little you understand about having a logical discussion.

Quote:

Nope. A £20 DVD player and a £5000 CD player will measure virtually identical, and on paper you wouldn't know which sounds better. To choose the £20 DVD player because it has a lower THD or higher STN is stupid. Listen to them.

But do it in a objective way.

Quote:

I grow tired talking to you, have you actually gone to a highend shop or just look at specifications?

Do you reflect your avatar in real life because so far you have given nothing but your subjective opinion and a poor one at that. Do you understand the difference between objective and subjective?

Quote:

I do get it, I use Logic 7 ontop of Pro-Logic, Dolby Digital & DTS. If you don't know what Logic-7 is about I suggest you go and have a listen. There is a huge difference in sound between the 5 surround decoders/av pre-amps I've owned in the past. They don't sound all the same. (wait for you to come back with "prove it" reply) yawn.

Wait, are you not running analog connection for blu ray? Do you even apply logic 7 ontop of a 7.1 signal or does your lexicon even have the ability to accept 7.1? You are applying a DSP function much like PLIIx with more adjustability, if you like logic 7 and what it does why not buy a new HK receiver so you can take advantage of lossless audio?

So since you think your components sound different do you also agree with machina dynamic's claims from the clever little clock Machina Dynamica's Clever Little Clock, Advanced Audio accessory, audiophile tweak, quantum physics, audio enhancement, mind-matter or the teleportation tweek Machina Dynamica's Teleportation Tweak, Audio Accessory, telephone, Long Distance, Quantum, Quantum Teleportation ?

 

[iriverdude]

Quote:

if you like logic 7 and what it does why not buy a new HK receiver so you can take advantage of lossless audio?

Because Logic-7 in HK AV receivers is a stripped down version. For DVD and Sky I use digital connection with Logic-7 for BD I'm using 5.1 input, bypass.

And because the poweramps I have are far higher in quality than the flagship HK receiver.

 

[SB]

Quote:

Originally Posted by iriverdude /img/forum/go_quote.gif Because Logic-7 in HK AV receivers is a stripped down version. For DVD and Sky I use digital connection with Logic-7 for BD I'm using 5.1 input, bypass. And because the poweramps I have are far higher in quality than the flagship HK receiver.

So you still think that the teleportation tweak works? HK does not have a stripped down version,they just don't have the same adjustability but since you have not listened to the new HK receivers how can you know it is any different? So you don't think logic 7 is good enough for blu ray and lossless audio? You do realize that you can use the pre outs of a HK receiver and still use your amps, right?

 

[iriverdude]

Quote:

HK does not have a stripped down version

Yes they do.

Quote:

You do realize that you can use the pre outs of a HK receiver and still use your amps, right?

Yup been there done that bought the t-shirt. I used a Yamaha av amp as multi-channel decoder/pre-amp. Still sounds crap. Oh no that goes against your belief, can't prove it so I must be wrong. Logic 7 does is not used for BD as I use offboard Oppo, but for Sky, DVD's and other non BD I use Logic 7. It sounds better than standard Pro-Logic, Dolby Digital and DTS...ooooohhh that's going to get your panties in a twist.

 

[SB]

Quote:

Originally Posted by iriverdude /img/forum/go_quote.gif Yes they do.

Well then that settles it, do you discuss everything in this nature? I was talking with serveral people on avsforum who are lexicon know it alls and the only difference they said was the adjustability.

Quote:

Yup been there done that bought the t-shirt. I used a Yamaha av amp as multi-channel decoder/pre-amp. Still sounds crap. Oh no that goes against your belief, can't prove it so I must be wrong. Logic 7 does is not used for BD as I use offboard Oppo, but for Sky, DVD's and other non BD I use Logic 7. It sounds better than standard Pro-Logic, Dolby Digital and DTS...ooooohhh that's going to get your panties in a twist.

This is funny, you spend all that money on the lexicon and then use the DAC's and analog section of a $500 OPPO! So much for the high end being better, logic 7 is a DSP function but I doubt you understand what logic 7 does or how it does it. You sir are a know nothing audio user who assumes everything, ever try using google to learn?

 

[iriverdude]

Quote:

then use the DAC's and analog section of a $500 OPPO!

The Oppo isn't my only source. :-/