[colonelkernel8]

iriverdude, I have read the entirety of this thread and the only thing you have proven so far is your arrogance and utter ignorance.

The only backing evidence you have used is price. That's it. This really isn't evidence at all. Aside from that you simply say "It just sounds better", which is exactly what this forum is trying to stop.

Why are your power amplifiers "far better than those in the flagship HK receiver"? They cost more? Oh wait, that is completely MEANINGLESS.

Just leave, please. I have to put up with this crap in the normal forums.

 

[iriverdude]

Quote:

Aside from that you simply say "It just sounds better".

Oh ok, one CDP has 0.001 % THD so it MUST SOUND BETTER. ROFL ROFL.

It's what everybody else is saying.

RS-1's sound better than ibuds. RS-1 sound better than SR-125. HD-650's sound better than ibuds. HD-650 sound better than PX100.

Exactly the damn thing, strange how it's home gear not phones get all narky about it.

 

[colonelkernel8]

It's not the same damn thing. Mechanical sound reproduction is not the same as DSP and amplification.

May I ask how old you are?

Your complete lack of tact is pretty embarrassing. (ROFL ROFL)

 

[iriverdude]

Quote:

May I ask how old you are?

Older than you. And with identical B&W speakers plus several better ones, similar quality av amp plus much higher end av pre-power, also stereo analogue system, another 5.1 system, also upgraded from lower quality speakers, amps, av amps, pre-amps, integrated, several subwoofers, several TV's, Dolby Decoders/processors with 3 channels, several stereo and multi-channel poweramps, several DVD players.

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It's not the same damn thing. Mechanical sound reproduction is not the same as DSP and amplification.

Really. So if one amp has different figures, you'd go for the one with better figures? I've had a few poweramps and better specced ones weren't the best sounding either. I've got a Denon Dolby Pro-Logic/Dolby Digital decoder. Features wise it's good, but sound it's pretty bad.

What exactly is the point of this sub forum? Not getting engineers, and the trolls like steve are just in flat denial "higher end" gear is sonically superior to lower end gear.

 

[colonelkernel8]

Quote:

Originally Posted by iriverdude /img/forum/go_quote.gif Really. So if one amp has different figures, you'd go for the one with better figures? I've had a few poweramps and better specced ones weren't the best sounding either. I've got a Denon Dolby Pro-Logic/Dolby Digital decoder. Features wise it's good, but sound it's pretty bad. What exactly is the point of this sub forum? Not getting engineers, and the trolls like steve are just in flat denial "higher end" gear is sonically superior to lower end gear.

Probably, if I was hearing considerable differences between power amps I'd want to get my head checked.

It's funny, either you are a compulsive sociopath or you are trolling, because evidently you know all there is to know about high end audio and therefore serve no purpose on this forum, because we don't want to hear what you have to say.

Maybe you are in flat out denial that your more expensive gear sounds better? We can toss that back and forth all day and not get anywhere. Because you are going to continue to cite your seemingly infinite gear pool as evidence that you know it sounds better.

Was there any reason for you to mention that you had "several better" B&W speakers or was that just so you could flex your e-muscles a little more.

Just wondering, what series of 602's do you have, S4's?

 

[iriverdude]

Quote:

because evidently you know all there is to know about high end audio

I never said I did. And my kit is hardly high end, nor have owned enough high end gear. But I do know it sounds way better than my lower end 5.1 home theatre. And that's all that matters, I don't have to prove it.

Quote:

maybe you are in flat out denial that your more expensive gear sounds better?

It does sound better. I've got two home theatres, one pretty good and one similar to yours except better as I have a Arcam Alpha driving fronts. The more expensive system sounds better.

Quote:

Was there any reason for you to mention that you had "several better" B&W speakers

Because I do, got same speakers as you plus another pair of standmounts higher quality plus lower end bookshelf, plus higher end floorstanders. Not bragging, quite a few people have better kit here than me (B&W 801, projectors, nice poweramps and processor, 1812 sub) Does that 1812 sound better than my SB12+ sub? Of course it probably does I'm not going to get pissed about it.

I have B&W 601 S1, they're "only" for my PC system, 5.1 with Arcam Alpha, Yamaha av amp, B&W CC6. My old home theatre, now I've got Kef Reference. Moved up from Yamaha av amps to budget Dolby Decoders, that Denon I mentioned, Lexicon MC-1 then Lexicon MC-8.

 

[colonelkernel8]

Quote:

Originally Posted by iriverdude /img/forum/go_quote.gif And that's all that matters, I don't have to prove it.

Then you are in the wrong forum.

 

[iriverdude]

And I suppose you wouldn't want to read when I gave my brother Lexicon MC-1 he said it was a upgrade from the Denon either?

 

[colonelkernel8]

Not really. Are we through?

 

[iriverdude]

You are. If you just want to compare specs just look at the back page. Brilliant.

 

[Shike]

I think saying "X is better than Y" while being too general is a large issue here.

There's no such thing as a AVR with a decent power section for amplifying. So when comparing AVRs to pre/pros, we can only consider AVRs that use preamp outputs.

IF a budget receiver is designed right, then I'd have no doubt that the preamp outs would sound just as good as some high-end processor units.

Unfortunately, many times they are NOT due to cost. I had a Pioneer receiver I used as a preamp for a while, it couldn't keep steady voltages on the outputs and caused various problems when hooked to amplifiers that had auto-standby circuits. This lead to distortion, noise, random cutouts, etc. I can surely say this unit was not equal to a stand alone "high-end" Pre/Pro (depending on how you define "high-end" too).

Also consider transformers used, PCB design, etc. Odds are these are not going to be done to an acceptable level, but those are just the "odds", there's potential of it happening. I have yet to see it though, so if someone could provide evidence of a cheap AVR with a preamp output section measuring extremely well I'd be much obliged (THD+N, IMD, crosstalk, dynamic range, and frequency response measurements welcome).

Honestly I'd be ecstatic to find one so I know what to suggest to those on other forums looking for an entry into HT. Everyone loves a good deal!

However, I do believe in the law of diminishing returns. After so far you're no longer going to improve the audio quality or design of a processor, but may add value in the form of features. I would not pay more for a Krell that had less features than my NAD (though I doubt such a scenario would occur).



Don't pay me too much mind though, I bought my NAD T163+ broken for $100 and fixed it (though it's definitely war torn). I guess I have little vested in this argument either way. Regardless, I still prefer stand-alone units for general flexibility and ease of troubleshooting.

 

[SB]

Quote:

Originally Posted by iriverdude The Oppo isn't my only source. :-/

You have more then one blu ray source? Even at that you still used the analog outputs of a $500 BD player so how can you say the lexicon is better when you are only using it as a volume control?

Quote:

Originally Posted by iriverdude Oh ok, one CDP has 0.001 % THD so it MUST SOUND BETTER. ROFL ROFL. It's what everybody else is saying. RS-1's sound better than ibuds. RS-1 sound better than SR-125. HD-650's sound better than ibuds. HD-650 sound better than PX100. Exactly the damn thing, strange how it's home gear not phones get all narky about it.

Irrelevant and once again you do not answer and specific questions.

Quote:

Originally Posted by colonelkernel8 It's not the same damn thing. Mechanical sound reproduction is not the same as DSP and amplification. May I ask how old you are? Your complete lack of tact is pretty embarrassing. (ROFL ROFL)

It is funny to see iriverdude try and participate in a conversation.

Quote:

Originally Posted by iriverdude Really. So if one amp has different figures, you'd go for the one with better figures? I've had a few poweramps and better specced ones weren't the best sounding either. I've got a Denon Dolby Pro-Logic/Dolby Digital decoder. Features wise it's good, but sound it's pretty bad. What exactly is the point of this sub forum? Not getting engineers, and the trolls like steve are just in flat denial "higher end" gear is sonically superior to lower end gear.

So far you are the only person who is trolling.

Quote:

Originally Posted by colonelkernel8 Probably, if I was hearing considerable differences between power amps I'd want to get my head checked. It's funny, either you are a compulsive sociopath or you are trolling, because evidently you know all there is to know about high end audio and therefore serve no purpose on this forum, because we don't want to hear what you have to say. Maybe you are in flat out denial that your more expensive gear sounds better? We can toss that back and forth all day and not get anywhere. Because you are going to continue to cite your seemingly infinite gear pool as evidence that you know it sounds better. Was there any reason for you to mention that you had "several better" B&W speakers or was that just so you could flex your e-muscles a little more. Just wondering, what series of 602's do you have, S4's?

Its funny becuase iriverdude does not even understand the simple DSP function of his own equipment. He is either lacking that bad in basic audio knowledge or he is putting on a show and hence he is the troll.

Quote:

Originally Posted by iriverdude I never said I did. And my kit is hardly high end, nor have owned enough high end gear. But I do know it sounds way better than my lower end 5.1 home theatre. And that's all that matters, I don't have to prove it.

Once again you provide absolute proof on what sound better, what do you mean by "lower end 5.1 home theatre"?

Quote:

Originally Posted by iriverdude It does sound better. I've got two home theatres, one pretty good and one similar to yours except better as I have a Arcam Alpha driving fronts. The more expensive system sounds better.

Wow you amaize me with the way you go about proving what sounds better, again just google subjective and maybe you will learn something.

Quote:

Originally Posted by iriverdude Because I do, got same speakers as you plus another pair of standmounts higher quality plus lower end bookshelf, plus higher end floorstanders. Not bragging, quite a few people have better kit here than me (B&W 801, projectors, nice poweramps and processor, 1812 sub) Does that 1812 sound better than my SB12+ sub? Of course it probably does I'm not going to get pissed about it.

Funny thing is the velodyne 1812 does not perform that well.

Quote:

Originally Posted by iriverdude I have B&W 601 S1, they're "only" for my PC system, 5.1 with Arcam Alpha, Yamaha av amp, B&W CC6. My old home theatre, now I've got Kef Reference. Moved up from Yamaha av amps to budget Dolby Decoders, that Denon I mentioned, Lexicon MC-1 then Lexicon MC-8.

Wow with both of those lexicon products do you still drive a ford model T

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Originally Posted by colonelkernel8 Then you are in the wrong forum.

I think the "sound science" eluds him.

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Originally Posted by iriverdude And I suppose you wouldn't want to read when I gave my brother Lexicon MC-1 he said it was a upgrade from the Denon either?

Again, you just can't understand that this is not proof!

Quote:

Originally Posted by iriverdude You are. If you just want to compare specs just look at the back page. Brilliant.

What? This is called the SOUND SCIENCE forum!

 

[SB]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Shike /img/forum/go_quote.gif I think saying "X is better than Y" while being too general is a large issue here. There's no such thing as a AVR with a decent power section for amplifying. So when comparing AVRs to pre/pros, we can only consider AVRs that use preamp outputs. IF a budget receiver is designed right, then I'd have no doubt that the preamp outs would sound just as good as some high-end processor units. Unfortunately, many times they are NOT due to cost. I had a Pioneer receiver I used as a preamp for a while, it couldn't keep steady voltages on the outputs and caused various problems when hooked to amplifiers that had auto-standby circuits. This lead to distortion, noise, random cutouts, etc. I can surely say this unit was not equal to a stand alone "high-end" Pre/Pro (depending on how you define "high-end" too).

Sorry but this sound more like a problem with your amps or even the speakers. You also have to check to output voltage on the pre amps and see if it is withing your amp specs.

Quote:

Also consider transformers used, PCB design, etc. Odds are these are not going to be done to an acceptable level, but those are just the "odds", there's potential of it happening. I have yet to see it though, so if someone could provide evidence of a cheap AVR with a preamp output section measuring extremely well I'd be much obliged (THD+N, IMD, crosstalk, dynamic range, and frequency response measurements welcome). Honestly I'd be ecstatic to find one so I know what to suggest to those on other forums looking for an entry into HT. Everyone loves a good deal!

RX-V659 Measurements & Analysis — Reviews and News from Audioholics

There are lots, $399 and it measures .009% THD + N at max.

Quote:

However, I do believe in the law of diminishing returns. After so far you're no longer going to improve the audio quality or design of a processor, but may add value in the form of features. I would not pay more for a Krell that had less features than my NAD (though I doubt such a scenario would occur).

But the high end processors off less features.

 

[iriverdude]

You again. :-/

Quote:

you say the lexicon is better when you are only using it as a volume control?

It's not just acting as a volume control for other sources. It's acting as a multi-channel DAC, DSP, bass management, and multi-channel volume control.

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What? This is called the SOUND SCIENCE forum!

And what science have you brought forward. Zilch. Nada.

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if I was hearing considerable differences between power amps I'd want to get my head checked.

I had three poweramps, different makes and startingly difference sound reproduction. Just switching in between was obvious. And yawn no proof either. And three people noticed difference in sound reproduction.

You harped the exactly the same thing on another forum, and strange enough the members called you a troll. You then called them trolls. Yawn.

Quote:

what do you mean by "lower end 5.1 home theatre"?

Lower quality power amps, lower quality processing, DSP, bass management, subwoofer, center, mains, and rears. Yawn no "proof" it's lower end.

oh could also tell between two stereo analogue pre-amps too.

 

[SB]

Quote:

Originally Posted by iriverdude /img/forum/go_quote.gif You again. :-/ It's not just acting as a volume control for other sources. It's acting as a multi-channel DAC, DSP, bass management, and multi-channel volume control.

For your BD sources, you talk about how your lexicon is superior to a basic receiver but then you use the DAC's and analog section of a $500 oppo. Since you don't understand that means you are being a hypocrite and since you will not understand what that means, you are saying one thing but doing another.

Quote:

And what science have you brought forward. Zilch. Nada.

Ahh, measurements of the equipment, DPS functions, and physical pictures of the design of high end gear, what else do you want?

Quote:

I had three poweramps, different makes and startingly difference sound reproduction. Just switching in between was obvious. And yawn no proof either.

Subjectivity - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Since you are not capable of using google. So you think that the clever orange clock and teleportation tweak have a sonic impact on an audio system as well?

Quote:

You harped the exactly the same thing on another forum, and strange enough the members called you a troll. You then called them trolls. Yawn.

Yawn indeed since you are the troll in this thread.

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Lower quality power amps, lower quality processing, DSP, bass management, subwoofer, center, mains, and rears. Yawn no "proof" it's lower end.

Define lower quality. How is the processing lower quality if DD and DTS are decoded in the exact same way as your lexicon?