High-End DIY
Aug 3, 2008 at 2:06 AM Post #16 of 52
wow - my mistake then - is that class a? I am fairly new and uninformed on a lot of that stuff - I know what I like to hear, however

I know I did not run a feedback loop, so I guess that would toss it into class A realm?

class d would be the switching PS action? I am just reading a lot, fairly good with an iron, and building stuff I think i would like

I didn't realize this was a DIY DAC thread - my apologies if I threw everything off -
 
Aug 3, 2008 at 3:41 AM Post #17 of 52
Quote:

Originally Posted by MeanWillieGreen /img/forum/go_quote.gif
I didn't realize this was a DIY DAC thread - my apologies if I threw everything off -


Not at all, this was intended to be all things DIY
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I just got it mixed up with TI's DAC chip.
 
Aug 10, 2008 at 6:32 PM Post #18 of 52
Quote:

Originally Posted by MeanWillieGreen /img/forum/go_quote.gif
wow - my mistake then - is that class a? I am fairly new and uninformed on a lot of that stuff - I know what I like to hear, however

I know I did not run a feedback loop, so I guess that would toss it into class A realm?



With 50ma of quiescent current, the LM3886 runs in class AB (with a light bias). It also really needs a feedback loop to work...

And no, this thread is not only about DACs.
 
Aug 10, 2008 at 11:09 PM Post #19 of 52
High end DIY is almost oxymoronic. The KGSS / KGBH I have heard or built destroy anything STAX currently produces (and, arguably, ever produced), while the OPUS rivals my Azur 840c (and arguably, more fun). I believe the Bijou to be better than many upper end commercial circuits, even before balanced, but time will tell.

Where DIY does fall short is aesthetics, usually, and in marketecture, thus not whipping the salivating hordes into perceiving that a brushed, black annodized case is far superior to an RF shielded case because it just LOOKS that way.

There are simply no commercial equivalents to a beta22, but some stiff competition on the tube side, but you definitely have to pay for the effort. DIY makes a wild circuit affordable, if you can accept the intangibles foregone, and that it is always harder than it looks / seems.
 
Aug 11, 2008 at 12:53 AM Post #20 of 52
Quote:

Originally Posted by pabbi1 /img/forum/go_quote.gif
High end DIY is almost oxymoronic. The KGSS / KGBH I have heard or built destroy anything STAX currently produces (and, arguably, ever produced), while the OPUS rivals my Azur 840c (and arguably, more fun). I believe the Bijou to be better than many upper end commercial circuits, even before balanced, but time will tell.

Where DIY does fall short is aesthetics, usually, and in marketecture, thus not whipping the salivating hordes into perceiving that a brushed, black annodized case is far superior to an RF shielded case because it just LOOKS that way.

There are simply no commercial equivalents to a beta22, but some stiff competition on the tube side, but you definitely have to pay for the effort. DIY makes a wild circuit affordable, if you can accept the intangibles foregone, and that it is always harder than it looks / seems.



Well the other side of that is that rarely, I mean RARELY, do you see a comparison of DIY products to commercial products. From what I've seen over the years, many people who build DIY amp/sources simply claim that they are better than commercially available products.

I suspect, this is mostly due to the sentimental value that comes from the accomplishment of building it and also due to the value provided from the projects(they are a lot cheaper than most commercial products that perform on the same level).

A prime example would be to ask those who have built a beta22 which commercial products they have tried. i suspect that it won't be most or all commercial amps, but time and time again you'll see the same people say that "there are no commercial products that can match the beta22".

Not talking about you in particular either.
 
Aug 11, 2008 at 1:38 AM Post #21 of 52
Quote:

Originally Posted by number1sixerfan /img/forum/go_quote.gif
Well the other side of that is that rarely, I mean RARELY, do you see a comparison of DIY products to commercial products. From what I've seen over the years, many people who build DIY amp/sources simply claim that they are better than commercially available products.

I suspect, this is mostly due to the sentimental value that comes from the accomplishment of building it and also due to the value provided from the projects(they are a lot cheaper than most commercial products that perform on the same level).

A prime example would be to ask those who have built a beta22 which commercial products they have tried. i suspect that it won't be most or all commercial amps, but time and time again you'll see the same people say that "there are no commercial products that can match the beta22".

Not talking about you in particular either.



I can see how someone might surmise this as the person that built the amp has an emotial stake in it. But the DIY community can be fiercely competitive. I am not talking about the beginner DIYer but there are fine examples of top class amps from the DIY world.
One piece you are forgetting is Meets, the beta 22 has been at Florida National, Voltron's 50+ attendance meets, my last Norcal meet in San Mateo had at least 2 of them. They have been heavily compared to comerial designs and have come out as stunning sucesses.

The Akido amp is another amp you do not see often but was at a meet in florida that I attended and it was really nice as well. Several dynahi builds have been at meets, a S.E.X. amp from bottlehead and maybe my new favorite diy design the stacker amp was at VSAC. These amps get alot of comparisions and most of the diy builders are acutely aware of the commercial designs and seek to compare their builds.

I would place the akido at or about the $1000-1500 builds from both RSA and Single Power, I would place the stacker amp in the same class.

The beta amp can be tougher as there are several builds of the beta to compare 2 channel, 3 channels and balanced. All compare well to top class SS amps.

The single best amp I have heard was a GM70 tube based amp that was brought to the Mayberry on Acid meet. With top class amps from the bay area present this amp was the favorite at the show.
http://i80.photobucket.com/albums/j1...mayberry33.jpg
I am not a DIYer but beleive that there is alot of potential from the diy community to stretch designs and keep the commercial guys on their toes. I have owned the SR71, Veda Dynahi, Moth 2a3, and Eddie Current HD2 and have spent time with most top class commercial builds at meets or at headfiers homes.
 
Aug 11, 2008 at 1:56 AM Post #22 of 52
Quote:

Originally Posted by jp11801 /img/forum/go_quote.gif
I can see how someone might surmise this as the person that built the amp has an emotial stake in it. But the DIY community can be fiercely competitive. I am not talking about the beginner DIYer but there are fine examples of top class amps from the DIY world.
One piece you are forgetting is Meets, the beta 22 has been at Florida National, Voltron's 50+ attendance meets, my last Norcal meet in San Mateo had at least 2 of them. They have been heavily compared to comerial designs and have come out as stunning sucesses.

The Akido amp is another amp you do not see often but was at a meet in florida that I attended and it was really nice as well. Several dynahi builds have been at meets, a S.E.X. amp from bottlehead and maybe my new favorite diy design the stacker amp was at VSAC. These amps get alot of comparisions and most of the diy builders are acutely aware of the commercial designs and seek to compare their builds.

I would place the akido at or about the $1000-1500 builds from both RSA and Single Power, I would place the stacker amp in the same class.

The beta amp can be tougher as there are several builds of the beta to compare 2 channel, 3 channels and balanced. All compare well to top class SS amps.

The single best amp I have heard was a GM70 tube based amp that was brought to the Mayberry on Acid meet. With top class amps from the bay area present this amp was the favorite at the show.
http://i80.photobucket.com/albums/j1...mayberry33.jpg
I am not a DIYer but beleive that there is alot of potential from the diy community to stretch designs and keep the commercial guys on their toes. I have owned the SR71, Veda Dynahi, Moth 2a3, and Eddie Current HD2 and have spent time with most top class commercial builds at meets or at headfiers homes.



I agree with a lot of what you said, there are a lot of great DIY designs. My only point was that some builders hint that the designs are superior to anything available from commercial and that is usually not true. Are they great bangs for buck? Sure, that cannot be argued. Are the best options available? I'd argue not always.
smily_headphones1.gif


And I have plenty of respect for DIY and the people who have the skills to do it. The only reason I don't buy custom amps is because of the lack of a warranty(which I'm sure that some builders will honor their work and repair any problems).
 
Aug 11, 2008 at 2:06 AM Post #23 of 52
Quote:

Originally Posted by jp11801 /img/forum/go_quote.gif
I can see how someone might surmise this as the person that built the amp has an emotial stake in it. But the DIY community can be fiercely competitive. I am not talking about the beginner DIYer but there are fine examples of top class amps from the DIY world.
One piece you are forgetting is Meets, the beta 22 has been at Florida National, Voltron's 50+ attendance meets, my last Norcal meet in San Mateo had at least 2 of them. They have been heavily compared to comerial designs and have come out as stunning sucesses.

The Akido amp is another amp you do not see often but was at a meet in florida that I attended and it was really nice as well. Several dynahi builds have been at meets, a S.E.X. amp from bottlehead and maybe my new favorite diy design the stacker amp was at VSAC. These amps get alot of comparisions and most of the diy builders are acutely aware of the commercial designs and seek to compare their builds.

I would place the akido at or about the $1000-1500 builds from both RSA and Single Power, I would place the stacker amp in the same class.

The beta amp can be tougher as there are several builds of the beta to compare 2 channel, 3 channels and balanced. All compare well to top class SS amps.

The single best amp I have heard was a GM70 tube based amp that was brought to the Mayberry on Acid meet. With top class amps from the bay area present this amp was the favorite at the show.
http://i80.photobucket.com/albums/j1...mayberry33.jpg
I am not a DIYer but beleive that there is alot of potential from the diy community to stretch designs and keep the commercial guys on their toes. I have owned the SR71, Veda Dynahi, Moth 2a3, and Eddie Current HD2 and have spent time with most top class commercial builds at meets or at headfiers homes.



mayberry40.jpg


I fixed that pic for you. Damn, I loved that amp. Was seriously one of the best amps, if not the best dynamic I've ever heard (would need more listening time to make any such claim), great with anything you threw at it, and iirc, the source was nothing uber-special, and it was single-ended, not even balanced.

John, I seem to recall you also owing a Cary SEI, and an EC/SS, and what ws the damn amp I didn't like the the PS1s? Ah....how soon they forget....

Re the Beta22, I've heard a couple now, but the only one I've spent time with was Thrice's 6 channel. I've not heard all the SS amps out there, but it's beat every SS amp I've heard to date. As far as commercial SS amps around, the only one that remains that I've not heard and am interested in is Phil LaRocco's new Home Headcode. That might be a beta challenger.
 
Aug 11, 2008 at 2:28 AM Post #24 of 52
From a technical standpoint (or any other for that matter) what makes a commercial product better? What makes a component good is the design and engineering that has gone into it. Do you really think that DIY designers just half-ass it because they don't plan on producing the components commercially?
 
Aug 11, 2008 at 2:52 AM Post #25 of 52
Quote:

Originally Posted by number1sixerfan /img/forum/go_quote.gif
I agree with a lot of what you said, there are a lot of great DIY designs. My only point was that some builders hint that the designs are superior to anything available from commercial and that is usually not true.



i think this fairly recent thread is what the poster is getting at.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dreadhead /img/forum/go_quote.gif
I have spent about 5 hours listening to both the beta22 and the GS-X after spending some time volume matching the two. After listening to several pieces again and again and switching back and forth between amps with the same headphones when I noticed a particular detail all I can say is right now I can not tell the difference between the two amps. I have tried this with both pairs of headphones of course.

...

To be honest I'm a bit disappointed for this kind of topolgy difference and for all the talk of the beta22 being the ultimate etc I was expecting more of a difference. Every time I notice something in the music that I would think was an area that the other may have a problem I switch and it's still there and identical with the other amp. I then listen on with whichever amp and switch back when I find something else. This has been going on for a while now.




http://www.head-fi.org/forums/f113/c...beta22-312745/
 
Aug 11, 2008 at 2:58 AM Post #26 of 52
Quote:

Originally Posted by naamanf /img/forum/go_quote.gif
From a technical standpoint (or any other for that matter) what makes a commercial product better? What makes a component good is the design and engineering that has gone into it. Do you really think that DIY designers just half-ass it because they don't plan on producing the components commercially?


Did I insinuate that they half-ass it? No...Did I say commercial products are better? No..

I simply said that I prefer commercial products because I get a warranty for it and because I am dealing with a business and not an individual, I feel more comfortable with trying to rectify a problem should any arise. As an independent builder/member of head-fi, an individual can discontinue builds/service at any point and time, whereas a lot of businesses keep going and going. Example...how many current builders have been consistently building amps nonstop for the head-fi community for the past 5 years? Not many.

If I have someone build me an amp and two years later I have an issue, I may no longer be able to find or communicate with the person.

My point was simply that some people act like DIY is inherently better than commercial and vice versa.
 
Aug 11, 2008 at 3:48 AM Post #27 of 52
anyone ever build or hear one of borbely audio's designs? i've always been interested in his stuff but never got around to trying one out for myself... diy is hard to invest in for me when it's at a high end price.

Home Page
 
Aug 11, 2008 at 3:52 AM Post #28 of 52
Quote:

Originally Posted by 00940 /img/forum/go_quote.gif
With 50ma of quiescent current, the LM3886 runs in class AB (with a light bias). It also really needs a feedback loop to work...

And no, this thread is not only about DACs.



I purposely did not run a feedback loop with the amp I built, as per the kit instructions which gave the option to run a feedback loop or not. If you are interested, the schematic and instructions can be found here: DIY Chip Amplifier Kits, PCB's, Components and Information.

The amp was not expensive: <$200 with chassis, amps components, wire, connectors. If expensive=high end, then that amp is not high end. However, for my ears and experience, it sounds high-end to me. It smoked a McIntosh MC-240, Jolida el84 based amp (mid-fi, probably), Antique Sound Lab MG SI 15 DT - in triode and pentode modes, and any other amp I have owned.

Granted, it is super detailed, and that can be annoying if you don't like overly analytical sounds. Some might characterize the amp as "dry," because the bass is not bloated and flabby, bit is tight and distinct. It is as high-end a sound as I have heard - outside of a Conrad-Johnson tube integrated with a pair of Martin Logans. Of course, since it is inherently subjective, your mileage may vary.
 
Aug 11, 2008 at 4:26 AM Post #29 of 52
DIY falls behind in the casing options. Most of us don't have the tooling to make really professional grade cases and are not able to order in quantity, either, so commercial options are out. The amp I'm picking at right now (HeadWize - Project: Brute Force In A Line Stage by Eric Barbour) has consumed a huge amount of time in casing. I've put about 25-30 hours in so far, just laying out the parts and using a square and scribe to mark the main plate. I should have the measurements and scribing done tonight and should hit the drill points with the auto centering punch tomorrow. But there are about 100 holes that need to be drilled and six cutouts to be made, along with the sides, horizontal aluminum side fins (
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), chassis punching, and eventually dropping it off to get powdercoated. I'm not going to paint this one. A layout shot from a few days ago:

DSC_0001.JPG


There are more scribings and notes on it now, but it's been a lot of work to get everything lined up and marked for drilling and cutting. I'll probably have 100 hours into this before the soldering iron is turned on.

Anyhow, my point is that commercial designers can do this just once with professional tools then have a few hundred chassis rolled off. I have to go through it for each and every amp I build.

Another important point is with the cost of components. I picked out the parts for this individually and spent what I wanted. Not quite true for commercial designs. They usually have a price target to meet and keep a closer eye on the components. For example, if the parts I want for this amp ran $50 over budget, that's not that big of a deal. But if you're building 500 of these, an extra $50 per unit is $25,000 off the bottom line. You can't keep increasing the price to compensate, especially when competitors know how price sensitive buyers are. So unless you're on a strict budget, you can use parts that only the most expensive commercial amps use.

The same is true with build quality. For instance, I'm going to put spaghetti on every lead in this amp. That'll take me an extra hour or two. Again, if you're building 500, or even 100, an extra two hours per unit is going to add up fast. Especially when you have orders pending and deposits received. Hiring a good tech to do it will also take off the bottom line. Same with the star ground I'm going to use - a grounding bar would save a lot of time during the build, but I don't mind the time it will take to put one in.

Further, component availability isn't always there for large orders. If you look at the photo, I've got a vintage faceted green glass power light. I was only able to get six of those, so I wouldn't be able to put that into production. Same with the vintage aluminum volume knob there. I think a vintage glass and chrome light is much better than a $1.80 LED, and the aluminum knob is better than a new plastic one.

As for the designs themselves, I think the DIY designs are better generally speaking. Commercial designs are almost always proprietary and there's not much encouragement for third parties to modify and redesign them. DIY, on the other hand, benefits from "many eyeballs." If there's a problem with a design, someone is likely to spot it and tell the author. That usually results in a correction. Commercial designs aren't usually picked over by fellow geeks, so flaws aren't always spotted. That isn't to say that commercial designs are bad (many are wonderful) but that corrections and improvements are much more likely with DIY.

Also, DIY tends to push the envelope with more radical and unusual designs that the market might not be ready for. I've been gathering parts for an 832A based amp. The 832A is kinda weird and unknown to most. Even I didn't know much about it until I came across a NOS JAN 832A stash and bought it. I found a couple designs I could use and will put one together after I finish this one and the next project, a Ciuffoli SESS using the 417A. The point being that almost no one else will get to listen to an 832A except for DIY people. If mine is well received at meets, some others might build one, and eventually, there might be a commercial model. But that would be years off, while I'd get to enjoy one now.

P.S. The amp should be up and running in a few weeks. Yes, it will be at CanJam '09 and I am taking photos throughout the build. I will post them with a writeup on building an amp from scratch.
 
Aug 11, 2008 at 6:57 AM Post #30 of 52
All the talk about DIY designs falling short on the casing... that's a sweeping generalization. It's really only limited by the builder's own imagination, ability, patience and attention to detail.
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