High-End DIY

[amb]

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Originally Posted by number1sixerfan /img/forum/go_quote.gif I simply said that I prefer commercial products because I get a warranty for it and because I am dealing with a business and not an individual, I feel more comfortable with trying to rectify a problem should any arise. As an independent builder/member of head-fi, an individual can discontinue builds/service at any point and time, whereas a lot of businesses keep going and going.

That's an illusion.

Most "businesses" in our little world, with the exception of HeadRoom, are nothing more than one-man shops. Many provide great service and have stellar reputations, but there have been quite a few that have gone awry. "Businesses" could discontinue builds/service at any time just the same (and they have), or worse, take your money and does not deliver. There is really no substantive difference between a "business" and any one of the reputable professional DIY builders. The latter also offer after-sale service and warranty, with lots of satisfied customers.

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Example...how many current builders have been consistently building amps nonstop for the head-fi community for the past 5 years? Not many.

Not many are in that game because they don't make a lot of money doing it, and it could be laborious, time-consuming work. But you get much more "bang" for the buck, something hand-built with pride. Just how many DIY builders do you need anyway, if you can get one reliable builder to build you what you want?

 

[panda]

this one is pretty good too: based from a diy design called the dyna-lo from kevin gilmore.

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[00940]

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Originally Posted by MeanWillieGreen /img/forum/go_quote.gif I purposely did not run a feedback loop with the amp I built, as per the kit instructions which gave the option to run a feedback loop or not. If you are interested, the schematic and instructions can be found here: DIY Chip Amplifier Kits, PCB's, Components and Information..

If you soldered Rf and R3 (and the amplifier wouldn't work properly if you didn't), then you have feedback and plenty of it.

There are two options on the board: 1/ solder rf onboard or on the legs of the chip (which doesn't change anything in terms of circuit) and 2/ put or not Ci. All Ci does is to reduce DC gain at unity, it doesn't make or break the feedback loop.

This discussion should now move to the DIY forum, don't you think ?

 

[boomana]

So I was just thinking that Pete Millet's 307A amp is pretty much the definition of high-end DIY, even if ttvj is making it commercially available. It's one of the best amps I've ever heard. I wonder what category number1sixerfan might consider it to be in, and if having the additional guy (Todd) in the deal makes it okay in his mind to buy or not, considering the builder is still just a solo guy in the world. Though I think everyone has a right to choose how they do, I'm not quite sure I understand the rationale behind it, as most US based commercial headphone amps that are popular here are one-man enterprises (RSA, Headamp, SinglePower), and there are other risks involved if going a different route (i.e. Chinese amps through ebay). There are a least a few well-known, reliable DIY builders from this site and others, that more than back their products, and have been known to repair others' bad builds, DIY and commercial, as well. It seems to me that a little research would make the "no warranty" argument disappear at least.

 

[number1sixerfan]

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Originally Posted by amb /img/forum/go_quote.gif That's an illusion. Most "businesses" in our little world, with the exception of HeadRoom, are nothing more than one-man shops. Many provide great service and have stellar reputations, but there have been quite a few that have gone awry. "Businesses" could discontinue builds/service at any time just the same (and they have), or worse, take your money and does not deliver. There is really no substantive difference between a "business" and any one of the reputable professional DIY builders. The latter also offer after-sale service and warranty, with lots of satisfied customers.

And you think I don't know that? Everyone knows that RSA has Ray, Headamp has Justin, Woo has Jack, and so on and so forth. That's obvious, but as business owners, imho, they have to have more accountability with their customers. And they are generally around two, three years down the road. If people aren't satisfied with their work, we can come here and complain and put pressure on the "business"(doesn't always work either).

I know that there are some reputable builders on this site, which I stated in my original post.


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Originally Posted by amb /img/forum/go_quote.gif Not many are in that game because they don't make a lot of money doing it, and it could be laborious, time-consuming work. But you get much more "bang" for the buck, something hand-built with pride. Just how many DIY builders do you need anyway, if you can get one reliable builder to build you what you want?

If you read my original post you will see that I state that you get bang for the buck and the sentimental value of diy. And if I am into diy, I would like for their to be more than one reliable builder(and there ARE more than one reliable builders on this site).

Would you only want headroom as one commercial option? You'd probably want more choices either way.

 

[number1sixerfan]

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Originally Posted by boomana /img/forum/go_quote.gif So I was just thinking that Pete Millet's 307A amp is pretty much the definition of high-end DIY, even if ttvj is making it commercially available. It's one of the best amps I've ever heard. I wonder what category number1sixerfan might consider it to be in, and if having the additional guy (Todd) in the deal makes it okay in his mind to buy or not, considering the builder is still just a solo guy in the world. Though I think everyone has a right to choose how they do, I'm not quite sure I understand the rationale behind it, as most US based commercial headphone amps that are popular here are one-man enterprises (RSA, Headamp, SinglePower), and there are other risks involved if going a different route (i.e. Chinese amps through ebay). There are a least a few well-known, reliable DIY builders from this site and others, that more than back their products, and have been known to repair others' bad builds, DIY and commercial, as well. It seems to me that a little research would make the "no warranty" argument disappear at least.

The simple fact that Todd is selling the millet amp makes it more attactive to me, as I am buying from a business that I can hold accountable two or three years later. Surely, I am not alone in this as most people dont go diy for some of the very same reasons. My main concern would be that a year or two later the builder could not be at head-fi or building for several reasons.

The last time I checked, MisterX wasn't building currently. With all the ppas, m3's and etc. out there, if something goes wrong with someone's they have to seek out another builder to fix it or deal with it. I've seen the same thing with other custom builds, where people have to find someone to fix their custom amp because the builder is no longer available.

And I agree, doing research can decrease a lot of these concerns, but its something I rather not deal with. What is the big deal? I see that builders themselves are taking this argument personally, when it is simply a preference I have(along with many others, as most people don't go the diy route)...

 

[n_maher]

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Originally Posted by amb /img/forum/go_quote.gif All the talk about DIY designs falling short on the casing... that's a sweeping generalization. It's really only limited by the builder's own imagination, ability, patience and attention to detail.

I'd add budget to that list, Ti.

 

[naamanf]

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Originally Posted by n_maher /img/forum/go_quote.gif I'd add budget to that list, Ti.

X2. I have some good ideas, but doing one offs on a wire EDM or CNC mill are just cost prohibitive. For now

 

[n_maher]

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Originally Posted by naamanf /img/forum/go_quote.gif X2. I have some good ideas, but doing one offs on a wire EDM or CNC mill are just cost prohibitive. For now

Online Machine Shop - Instant Pricing - playing with their software causes me great pain!

 

[PFKMan23]

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Originally Posted by number1sixerfan /img/forum/go_quote.gif The simple fact that Todd is selling the millet amp makes it more attactive to me, as I am buying from a business that I can hold accountable two or three years later. Surely, I am not alone in this as most people dont go diy for some of the very same reasons. My main concern would be that a year or two later the builder could not be at head-fi or building for several reasons. The last time I checked, MisterX wasn't building currently. With all the ppas, m3's and etc. out there, if something goes wrong with someone's they have to seek out another builder to fix it or deal with it. I've seen the same thing with other custom builds, where people have to find someone to fix their custom amp because the builder is no longer available. And I agree, doing research can decrease a lot of these concerns, but its something I rather not deal with. What is the big deal? I see that builders themselves are taking this argument personally, when it is simply a preference I have(along with many others, as most people don't go the diy route)...

With respect to the 307a the person who you'd probably be dealing wit for repairs and such is Pete Millet. Todd just sells the amps, but Pete builds them (and I assume would deal with servicing issues as well). While I like Todd, I wouldn't consider that a positive or a negative as he'd most likely act as go between.

As far as DIYFS types vs. most seller go, from what I've seen with few exceptions as has been mentioned, most "companies" are nothing more than a DIYFS with a company name and nicer cases with a warranty (which many or may not be honored). From what I've seen and from who I've talked to, my experience is that that line is much thinner and more blurred than what you're saying. While I can definitely see your point, I've seen examples where amps (and some other items) from a few manufacturers who are currently in business were unable or unwilling to be repaired. As a result, these owners went to "DIY guys" to get their amps and other stuff repaired.

Moreover, if a builder, attached to a business wanted to cut and run, retire or whatever, there is little anyone can do. In the end the steps would be the same as far as recouping money and such go.

My experience is this: I own a B22 and I've heard and spent some time with a GSX, Apache, Squarewave and some other amps. I prefer the B22 to all of them. I'm not a builder, in fact, like you, I probably would in most cases go with a commercially as I do believe it does outperform those commcerial level offerings.

And talking to DIYers and even some businesses they have told me that an amp like B22 would cost several thousnd dollars because it is an expensive (parts wise) and time consuming build. I also think that if a B22 was in a prettier case that is on par with a commercial case job, the reception of the amp would be far different.

 

[amb]

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Originally Posted by n_maher /img/forum/go_quote.gif I'd add budget to that list, Ti.

Of course, but we are talking about high-end here, so it's a given. I think one would still come out ahead (as far as cost is concerned) with a DIY design when it's all said and done, and be able to get into a realm of amps that are technically advanced, but not commercially-feasible.

 

[n_maher]

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Originally Posted by amb /img/forum/go_quote.gif Of course, but we are talking about high-end here, so it's a given.

Point well taken.

 

[en480c4]

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Originally Posted by number1sixerfan /img/forum/go_quote.gif Well the other side of that is that rarely, I mean RARELY, do you see a comparison of DIY products to commercial products. From what I've seen over the years, many people who build DIY amp/sources simply claim that they are better than commercially available products. I suspect, this is mostly due to the sentimental value that comes from the accomplishment of building it and also due to the value provided from the projects(they are a lot cheaper than most commercial products that perform on the same level). A prime example would be to ask those who have built a beta22 which commercial products they have tried. i suspect that it won't be most or all commercial amps, but time and time again you'll see the same people say that "there are no commercial products that can match the beta22". Not talking about you in particular either.

A few things...

If we're talking about emotional biases, I think the small percentage of influence that "sentimental value" on the part of an amp builder can be offset by those that spent a considerable amount of money on commercial amps and are unable or unwilling to objectively evaluate an amp that cost considerably less but required a great deal of time & effort to complete. And as a result, the DIY amp may sound significantly better than amps that cost more. I'm not going to get into an argument about placebo, but many discussions about it start with justifying a high price tag.

I haven't built a Beta22 but have heard a number of high-end solid state and tube amps and the Beta is among the best amps that I've heard. I have no doubt that the Beta would cost 2-3 times the cost of parts if produced by a commercial manufacturer, and in my experience, that would be justified based on its performance. I haven't spent enough to say if it comes out on top among all of the top offerings out there, but I can say that I do know I prefer it to a large number of them.

Finally, and people are free to correct me if I'm wrong, but I was under the impression that comparing DIY products to commercially available gear was frowned upon for a number of reasons. In theory a well-designed DIY amp built for the cost of parts should perform significantly better than the product purchased for the same money. It can be viewed as doing a disservice to manufactures (and by extension sponsors) who incur marketing costs, R&D costs and the warranty service (that you've said is so important to you) to compare their products that cost significantly less. Also, there's a much bigger range of configurations that can be found for any given DIY design so doing comparisons between examples of the same design can be difficult, not to mention different products entirely.

And as always, feel free to disagree with me. And please keep in mind that this is just my take on the items you mentioned above and not directed at anyone in particular.

 

[tkam]

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Originally Posted by number1sixerfan /img/forum/go_quote.gif A prime example would be to ask those who have built a beta22 which commercial products they have tried. i suspect that it won't be most or all commercial amps, but time and time again you'll see the same people say that "there are no commercial products that can match the beta22".

I'm certainly no DIYer but I've heard more than a fair share of the headphone amps available and the beta22 is the best solid state headphone amp I've heard.

 

[vcoheda]

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Originally Posted by 00940 /img/forum/go_quote.gif If you soldered Rf and R3 (and the amplifier wouldn't work properly if you didn't), then you have feedback and plenty of it. There are two options on the board: 1/ solder rf onboard or on the legs of the chip (which doesn't change anything in terms of circuit) and 2/ put or not Ci. All Ci does is to reduce DC gain at unity, it doesn't make or break the feedback loop. This discussion should now move to the DIY forum, don't you think ?

no.

i believe this thread is a general discussion about DIY builds instead of one that addresses technical points, such as your post above. I would ask to keep this thread geared toward the former.

thanks