[ThanatosVI]

Cat 7 and 8 ethernet cables are shielded and that is not good for audio applications. I use Triode Wire Labs Freedom ethernet cables that use Cat 6A. There is a discussion on shielded vs unshielded ethernet cables here:
https://audiophilestyle.com/forums/topic/46225-shielded-vs-unshielded-ethernet-and-grounding/

I bought my TWL Freedom cables about a month ago when I added my Etherregen and I’m very satisfied with the cable’s build quality and more importantly the sound quality.

Thank you.

Also an Etherregen is worth it from your experience, right?
Do you need great cables on the in and outside of the ER or is the piece between ER and Server significantly more important?

 

[bluecar]

Maybe you can help me here.

My Server has only LAN but getting a cable through the whole room is a pain in the ass.
Do you know any options I have so that my Server can be connected to the Internet?

@Roasty is the Pink Faun Ethernet as good as the I2s and USB?

Also has anyone experience with ViaBlue ethernet cables?

So, how to use Wifi, without using WiFi :d

So, assuming you have WiFi in the home, you could create a Wifi bridge, and then connect your Server to that via the wired connection. There's some good content online about how to do this with Apple Airport express, and Google WiFi also offers similar capability. In practice, you can connect almost any Wifi capable router in "Bridge" mode and use that instead of cabling. The usual downside is network latency, but that really doesn't matter for audio applications. Some WiFi devices can be noisy as well, but not that much worse than wired. the usual issue with WiFi is crappy signal strength causing dropouts, but in a short-run bridge (i.e. within the same room), this is rarely an issue. Apple Airport can connect to any WiFi network, you don't need an Apple router as your main WiFi hub.

Connecting the WiFi bridge direct to your streamer/server might be fine for you, but if you want to step up a notch, add another switch between the wireless bridge and your server/streamer - a basic cisco 4 port would be fine, but an EE 8port or Fidelizer Etherstream will clean up the noise from the WiFi device (or an SotM switch if you are feeling really lavish!!). It's not as good as Wired, but will get you nearly there.

An alternative solution is to buy a very long run of flat Cat7 cable (you can buy this as cable, or pre-terminated). The flat profile cables go very neatly under carpets, and don't need to be run under the floorboards. It;s the same spec as any other Cat7, but the flat profile is not as durable as the round cables - totally not an issue for an under-carpet install, where it's never going to get twisted or pulled about. If you are happy to lift carpets, this fits very neatly beside the 'grip-strip' that most carpets have fixed at the edges. It's also almost always narrow enough to go between traditional floorboards. A bit more faff than WiFi, but not that much work and you get a decent wired connection without tearing up the house

 

[ThanatosVI]

So, how to use Wifi, without using WiFi :d

So, assuming you have WiFi in the home, you could create a Wifi bridge, and then connect your Server to that via the wired connection. There's some good content online about how to do this with Apple Airport express, and Google WiFi also offers similar capability. In practice, you can connect almost any Wifi capable router in "Bridge" mode and use that instead of cabling. The usual downside is network latency, but that really doesn't matter for audio applications. Some WiFi devices can be noisy as well, but not that much worse than wired. the usual issue with WiFi is crappy signal strength causing dropouts, but in a short-run bridge (i.e. within the same room), this is rarely an issue. Apple Airport can connect to any WiFi network, you don't need an Apple router as your main WiFi hub.

Connecting the WiFi bridge direct to your streamer/server might be fine for you, but if you want to step up a notch, add another switch between the wireless bridge and your server/streamer - a basic cisco 4 port would be fine, but an EE 8port or Fidelizer Etherstream will clean up the noise from the WiFi device (or an SotM switch if you are feeling really lavish!!). It's not as good as Wired, but will get you nearly there.

An alternative solution is to buy a very long run of flat Cat7 cable (you can buy this as cable, or pre-terminated). The flat profile cables go very neatly under carpets, and don't need to be run under the floorboards. It;s the same spec as any other Cat7, but the flat profile is not as durable as the round cables - totally not an issue for an under-carpet install, where it's never going to get twisted or pulled about. If you are happy to lift carpets, this fits very neatly beside the 'grip-strip' that most carpets have fixed at the edges. It's also almost always narrow enough to go between traditional floorboards. A bit more faff than WiFi, but not that much work and you get a decent wired connection without tearing up the house

Thx mate for that very thorough explanation of options.
Does anybody know how the Fidelizer Ether Stream compares to the Uptone Etherregen?

Step one would be the Wifibridge, and next year I can go from there.

 

[bluecar]

Cat 7 and 8 ethernet cables are shielded and that is not good for audio applications. I use Triode Wire Labs Freedom ethernet cables that use Cat 6A. There is a discussion on shielded vs unshielded ethernet cables here:
https://audiophilestyle.com/forums/topic/46225-shielded-vs-unshielded-ethernet-and-grounding/

I'll buy that from an engineering perspective when one is talking about connecting to a source device (Streamer/Dac), but elsewhere in the network, it shouldn't make that much difference. Packet integrity is assured via protocol as data flows through various network components, so as long as the network is functioning, the data will flow. Networks devices pretty much don't care about RF noise or AC transients - the protocols themselves assure packet delivery - they are not even that sensitive to clock fidelity.

Where the pedal hits the metal is where you connect to a device that will carry out some form of mixed signal processing (i.e. a DAC or a Streamer) - nothing else in your network will be materially affected by signal noise in any of the conductors or shields. Ideally, you want a Cat6 U/UTP (If shopping for computer supplies) or a specifically designed ethernet cable for audio applications, to connect your DAC/Streamer.

Depending on your network, there may be some marginal benefit in using an 'audio-friendly' CAT6 structure for your overall network, but this will eventually become a limiting factor for all the other services you use your network for. Unless building an isolated network for 'audio-only' purposes, it's better to use generic CAT7/8 cabling and isolate/condition the last link into your signal processing device (whatever that may be)

Of course, none of that applies to I2S, which is a whole other ballgame

 

[bluecar]

Thx mate for that very thorough explanation of options.
Does anybody know how the Fidelizer Ether Stream compares to the Uptone Etherregen?

Step one would be the Wifibridge, and next year I can go from there.

EtherRegen is a 'ground up' design, with specific emphasis on reducing phase-noise from its internal clock, and avoiding passthrough of clock phase-noise from other clocks in upstream devices. The Etherstream does the same thing by replacing the OEM cisco clock with a high-quality device, and improving the power and power control circuitry (basically by replacing cheap components with high-quality caps and resistors).

EtherStream is a straight swap for any network switch, so it provides more flexibility in use. EtherGen is pretty specific in its use. Etherstream goes for around $400, Uptone is $680+ (I think).

Both companies have had good reviews for their work.

Once you are up and running, borrow/demo the devices and see what works - it'g going to be pretty specific to your setup, so worth tweaking.

 

[ThanatosVI]

EtherRegen is a 'ground up' design, with specific emphasis on reducing phase-noise from its internal clock, and avoiding passthrough of clock phase-noise from other clocks in upstream devices. The Etherstream does the same thing by replacing the OEM cisco clock with a high-quality device, and improving the power and power control circuitry (basically by replacing cheap components with high-quality caps and resistors).

EtherStream is a straight swap for any network switch, so it provides more flexibility in use. EtherGen is pretty specific in its use. Etherstream goes for around $400, Uptone is $680+ (I think).

Both companies have had good reviews for their work.

Once you are up and running, borrow/demo the devices and see what works - it'g going to be pretty specific to your setup, so worth tweaking.

Thanks again for all the help.
The SOtM is similar to the EtherStream, right(but more premium)
You probably also know the Main differences here I suppose.

Also the amazon eero probably works in the same fashion as Apple airport and Google Wifi. Do you know how that one scores?

 

[Marco_tam]

Oh, for sure - wired is the way to go, unless your streamer provides exceptional wireless equipment

What I meant was to use a wired router (like the EdgeRouter) to connect the streamer instead of a wireless router (like ASUS, Netgear). Trust me the improvement is not subtle.

 

[koven]

I'm using the tornado for my niagara, and have another tornado on the way for either the wa33 or milo. I've not used AQ xlr cables before.. How would you described Fire?

Have you tried the Tornado on WA33? Curious how your TWL cable stacks up. I'd describe Fire as transparent and ultra resolving, kind of like what DAVE brings to the table, to a smaller magnitude of course. I think it synergizes well with WA33.

 

[BassicScience]

I just read some of this thread for the first time. Anyone who thinks Ethernet cables or switches can make any audible difference in a system really needs to take an engineering class or two. USB cable differences are also highly dubious, but at least plausible for longer lengths and/or poorly-engineered (non-reclocking) DACs.

As far as analog interconnects, I'd recommend the mid-price Audioquest stuff (i.e., Mackenzie, Red River) as a solid, neutral baseline. I use Audoquest Earth in my main (speaker) rig, and honestly the improvement is subtle, at best. There are just far more effective places to invest big money in an audio system than interconnects. Speaker and headphone cables merit a bit more attention as they carry higher current.

 

[Roasty]

I just read some of this thread for the first time. Anyone who thinks Ethernet cables or switches can make any audible difference in a system really needs to take an engineering class or two. USB cable differences are also highly dubious, but at least plausible for longer lengths and/or poorly-engineered (non-reclocking) DACs.

As far as analog interconnects, I'd recommend the mid-price Audioquest stuff (i.e., Mackenzie, Red River) as a solid, neutral baseline. I use Audoquest Earth in my main (speaker) rig, and honestly the improvement is subtle, at best. There are just far more effective places to invest big money in an audio system than interconnects. Speaker and headphone cables merit a bit more attention as they carry higher current.

In all likelihood, you may be right. But you gotta love how placebo and expectation bias can add so much happiness to the hobby! It also helps us justify our insane spending on pretty looking cables.

Anyways I (think) I can hear a difference between usb and ethernet cables, as can quite a lot of other people. So, your point of view may fall on deaf ears (lol no pun intended). In any case the differences I hear are, like your perception of analog cables, subtle, at best.

Similarly, any view on speaker and headphone cables other than stock or bare necessity may be frowned upon at the ASR forum. But I guess, really, life is short enough without having to crap on each others parade.

 

[BassicScience]

In all likelihood, you may be right. But you gotta love how placebo and expectation bias can add so much happiness to the hobby! It also helps us justify our insane spending on pretty looking cables.

Anyways I (think) I can hear a difference between usb and ethernet cables, as can quite a lot of other people. So, your point of view may fall on deaf ears (lol no pun intended). In any case the differences I hear are, like your perception of analog cables, subtle, at best.

Similarly, any view on speaker and headphone cables other than stock or bare necessity may be frowned upon at the ASR forum. But I guess, really, life is short enough without having to crap on each others parade.

I'm not here to "crap on" anyone's parade. If you think you hear a difference, does it really matter if you're just imagining it? My message is more aimed at people of more modest means who may be wondering where to spend their limited audio hobby funds in the most effective way.

 

[ThanatosVI]

I'm not here to "crap on" anyone's parade. If you think you hear a difference, does it really matter if you're just imagining it? My message is more aimed at people of more modest means who may be wondering where to spend their limited audio hobby funds in the most effective way.

Even though I think I do hear clear improvements with better cables, I want to emphasize that BassicScience is correct and limited funds should flow into upgrades of headphones, amps and dacs first and only after you think you reached the level you're content with continue with cables.

They are a finishing touch and make something great excellent, but if you don't think your gear is great and "endgame" for you already, continue to invest into those components first.

 

[Roasty]

I'm not here to "crap on" anyone's parade. If you think you hear a difference, does it really matter if you're just imagining it? My message is more aimed at people of more modest means who may be wondering where to spend their limited audio hobby funds in the most effective way.

I completely agree with that. As @ThanatosVI mentioned, finishing touches.

On a side note, it would have been difficult to have known who your message was aimed at from the contents of your original post. I do hope those who venture into these parts of the forum have some sense of mind than to spend more than they can afford to, particularly when it's called summit-fi and high end. (Having said that, most of the items discussed so far are probably on the lower end of high end audio..)

Anyways, its good that you posted in this thread. Sort of like a 10th man principle.

 

[Mikem53]

In all likelihood, you may be right. But you gotta love how placebo and expectation bias can add so much happiness to the hobby! It also helps us justify our insane spending on pretty looking cables.

Anyways I (think) I can hear a difference between usb and ethernet cables, as can quite a lot of other people. So, your point of view may fall on deaf ears (lol no pun intended). In any case the differences I hear are, like your perception of analog cables, subtle, at best.

Similarly, any view on speaker and headphone cables other than stock or bare necessity may be frowned upon at the ASR forum. But I guess, really, life is short enough without having to crap on each others parade.

The differences you hear are more likely from the type of interfaces used and how they’re implemented..

 

[bluecar]

I just read some of this thread for the first time. Anyone who thinks Ethernet cables or switches can make any audible difference in a system really needs to take an engineering class or two. USB cable differences are also highly dubious, but at least plausible for longer lengths and/or poorly-engineered (non-reclocking) DACs.

As far as analog interconnects, I'd recommend the mid-price Audioquest stuff (i.e., Mackenzie, Red River) as a solid, neutral baseline. I use Audoquest Earth in my main (speaker) rig, and honestly the improvement is subtle, at best. There are just far more effective places to invest big money in an audio system than interconnects. Speaker and headphone cables merit a bit more attention as they carry higher current.

Lols Bassic, I did take a class or two, in fact I took a whole bunch of them (engineer life!!)

You are bang-on in one way - nothing in the design of cabling/devices, beyond the relevant standard, makes much difference to packet integrity in the network......in ethernet, packets flow back and forth, get corrected, buffered and ingested. In USB/SPDIF etc, signal data flows continuously, usually isosynchronous (for audio applications) and gets buffered, parsed and distributed by the receiver. All good. occasionally there are snags, but that's usually due to broken/damaged kit rather than 'quality' issues. Sometimes very long lengths of USB can't sustain high data rates, but that's just crappy conductors, and easily cured by spending $20 rather than $10 on the cable

I do see benefit in good digital cabling and switches, but only after everything else is as you want it. Reducing RF noise in the digital domain does help in two broad classes of circuits - D/D conversion (i.e. a network bridge converting Packet data to Iso signals like USB or SPDIF) and D/A convertors - both have a mix of IC's and solid state devices - filters and OpAmps are very susceptible to RF-induced impedance in circuits, and it does affect the dynamic range and dynamics of the modulated output waveform

But, it's a subtle effect, and you won't really hear it until you are maxed out on speakers, headphones and amplifiers. Slightly disagree on headphone cables - they can have marked effect on sound presentation, but they won't make a gash signal sound good