HiFiMan Susvara
Jun 15, 2020 at 9:16 PM Post #3,901 of 25,919
Just to circle back here, for general knowledge and posterity. First and foremost, Bakoon responded w/ THD <0.5% / SNR 95dB on their 13R. To paraphrase and extrapolate further, a zero negative feedback amp is not going to lend itself to the 'spec wars' you see from other manufacturers. The $200 SMSL SP200 advertises 0.00006% THD; achieving extreme distortion mitigation thru negative feedback is not an engineering feat per se, it is more a design decision which also happens to play quite favorably in marketing collateral. Some hear these amps as ultra clean, others may describe it as leaning towards sterile, lifeless. Not inherently bad at all, but this type of sound can start to feel rather homogeneous. Let's be honest, how different does a GSX2 sound compared to a HPA4, or even the new Topping A90? Sure, maybe a hair of variance but they're all underscored by that 'wire-with-gain' sentiment. They have little or no character, for better or worse. At the end of the day, and to oversimplify, a primary advantage of a zero global feedback circuit is increased musicality, air, holographic imaging and stage depth.. in other words, you get a solid state that gets you the closest to a tube sound without any actual drawbacks of tubes. If you need a more technical explanation, I'd advise you to check out some of Nelson Pass' articles on feedback and distortion. Some of his philosophies on amp design eschews technical perfection. So does Ayre and a few others. On paper their amps are more or less utter 'failures'. In practice many own and love their amps. Long story short, let your ears dictate sound quality, not graphs.

Thanks for the update...your comments of musicality, holographic imaging and stage depth go hand-in-hand with top flight amplifiers (ss and tube). As a reviewer, I want totally transparent on top of all of those qualities too. With this COVID-19 mess it might be hard to get to hear one soon, but I may ask them for a review sample as I'm curious to hear how it sounds; especially based on your feedback. :)
 
Jun 15, 2020 at 10:56 PM Post #3,902 of 25,919
I have outstanding feedback on the 13r from a couple of people I highly respect....as far as driving susvara and other hard to drive HP's while having a tiny footprint
 
Jun 15, 2020 at 11:16 PM Post #3,904 of 25,919
Ah, now you're talking! These are great! With that Bakkon amp the pairing has to be something special!

Yah was really good. The dealer had no idea about the Bakoon amp. He was kind of stunned by what it could do in such a tiny package. I'm also considering a tube pre to put in front of the Bakoon to bring out more holographic. Something that looks just a cool like the Billie Amp.
 
Jun 16, 2020 at 4:22 AM Post #3,905 of 25,919
It takes the same plugs as the HE1000V2 right?

Right, it does.

If you need a more technical explanation, I'd advise you to check out some of Nelson Pass' articles on feedback and distortion.

Agreed, it's very interesting what he does and how plus he's very careful with feedback.

I'm also considering a tube pre to put in front of the Bakoon to bring out more holographic.

Considering how the Bakoon is made, it will be very difficult to beat its own volume control. You might get one thing, but give two in return. But let us know once you do anything!
 
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Jun 17, 2020 at 1:28 PM Post #3,906 of 25,919
In what way? Power? Sound? Control?

It was on the fuzzy side, but I don't think it's about power in this case. From what I know, or at least what the owner of this amp told me, its taps have flowing infinite output impedance due to how the circuit is made. So it's how the F7 sees Susvara as a load and how it interacts with it. Speaker amps are naturally designed to work with 4 or 8 ohms impedance load, but these cans have 60 ohms. The amp is great with speakers though.
 
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Jun 17, 2020 at 1:44 PM Post #3,907 of 25,919
Just to circle back here, for general knowledge and posterity. First and foremost, Bakoon responded w/ THD <0.5% / SNR 95dB on their 13R. To paraphrase and extrapolate further, a zero negative feedback amp is not going to lend itself to the 'spec wars' you see from other manufacturers. The $200 SMSL SP200 advertises 0.00006% THD; achieving extreme distortion mitigation thru negative feedback is not an engineering feat per se, it is more a design decision which also happens to play quite favorably in marketing collateral. Some hear these amps as ultra clean, others may describe it as leaning towards sterile, lifeless. Not inherently bad at all, but this type of sound can start to feel rather homogeneous. Let's be honest, how different does a GSX2 sound compared to a HPA4, or even the new Topping A90? Sure, maybe a hair of variance but they're all underscored by that 'wire-with-gain' sentiment. They have little or no character, for better or worse. At the end of the day, and to oversimplify, a primary advantage of a zero global feedback circuit is increased musicality, air, holographic imaging and stage depth.. in other words, you get a solid state that gets you the closest to a tube sound without any actual drawbacks of tubes. If you need a more technical explanation, I'd advise you to check out some of Nelson Pass' articles on feedback and distortion. Some of his philosophies on amp design eschews technical perfection. So does Ayre and a few others. On paper their amps are more or less utter 'failures'. In practice many own and love their amps. Long story short, let your ears dictate sound quality, not graphs.
Agreed that specs can be meaningless, but they can also point to possible problems. In terms of this spec, it doesn't tell us much - although that they are quoting the SNR at less than 0.5% THD is itself not encouraging, because 0.5% is pretty high. One question is, are they quoting the SNR at full power. What we'd really like to know is the sensitivity of the amp, e.g. for a 2v input what is the maximum gain at some specified THD - let's say 0.1%, which is totally acceptable. Or asking the question another way, how many volts input is needed to produce 3w output (which is what it's rated for with a 60 ohm load, operating in balanced mode), at the same THD.

In my own DIY system I found I needed to add a preamp because my hybrid headphone amp (rated at about 1.6 watts into 60 ohms), using tubes with the highest gain in that input circuit (6DJ8s), was providing 21 dB of gain at 0.2% THD and 27 dB at 1%, and 21 just wasn't loud enough, while 27 sounded edgy, audibly pushing the amp's limits. Adding the preamp (a beautiful DIY tube design using 4 6N30Ps) added no audible noise, solved the gain problem and also improved the sound a lot, in terms of timbre, spaciousness, dynamics, ease of presentation...Preamp amplification is by nature more refined than power amp amplification (in fact power amps are mostly converting voltage to power/current, not amplifying voltage). Adding preamp gain and taking some away from the hp amp allowed the latter to operate well within its comfort zone.
 
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Jun 17, 2020 at 2:07 PM Post #3,908 of 25,919
Agreed that specs can be meaningless, but they can also point to possible problems. In terms of this spec, it doesn't tell us much - although that they are quoting the SNR at less than 0.5% THD is itself not encouraging, because 0.5% is pretty high. The question is, are they quoting the SNR at full power. What we'd like to know is the sensitivity of the amp, e.g. for a 2v input what is the maximum gain at some specified THD - let's say 0.1%, which is totally acceptable. Or asking the question another way, how many volts input is needed to produce 3w output (which is what it's rated for for with a 60 ohm load operating in balanced mode).

In my own DIY system I found I needed to add a preamp because the headphone amp (rated at about 1.6 watts into 60 ohms), using tubes with the highest gain for that circuit (6DJ8s), was providing 21 dB of gain at 0.2% THD and 27 dB at 1%, and 21 just wasn't loud enough, while 27 sounded edgy, audibly pushing the amp's limits. Adding the preamp (a beautiful DIY tube design using 4 6N30Ps) added no audible noise, solved the gain problem and also improved the sound a lot, in terms of timbre, spaciousness, dynamics, ease of presentation...Preamp amplification is by nature more refined than power amp amplification (in fact power amps are mostly converting voltage to power/current). Adding preamp gain and taking some away from the hp amp allowed the latter to operate well within its comfort zone.

I would encourage you to ask Bakoon directly if curious and report back with your findings / analysis. :)
info@bakoon.com
 
Jun 17, 2020 at 2:16 PM Post #3,909 of 25,919
I would encourage you to ask Bakoon directly if curious and report back with your findings / analysis. :)
info@bakoon.com
I don't doubt that it sounds good with Susvara since everyone here who's heard the combination has been impressed, not to mention the reviews. But whether it's going to be loud enough for different listeners is something that only gain figures at acceptable THD can provide. They could easily provide those figures.
 
Jun 17, 2020 at 2:25 PM Post #3,910 of 25,919
loud enough? That hardly seems to be an issue...I am currently using my formula s/powerman 6 watts at 16ohms with my chord dave/blu2 and have no problem with volume on my susvaras and the bakoon is twice the power of the formula s and everything I have read speaks of people loving the susvara out of the Bakoon
 
Jun 17, 2020 at 4:27 PM Post #3,911 of 25,919
I don't doubt that it sounds good with Susvara since everyone here who's heard the combination has been impressed, not to mention the reviews. But whether it's going to be loud enough for different listeners is something that only gain figures at acceptable THD can provide. They could easily provide those figures.

Acceptable THD to who though, human ears or an APx555 machine? :upside_down:
 
Jun 17, 2020 at 5:18 PM Post #3,912 of 25,919
I would encourage you to ask Bakoon directly if curious and report back with your findings / analysis. :)
info@bakoon.com
have you tried the TCs out of the Bakoon yet? If so is it as great a pairing as the Bakoon with the Susvaras? You got me curious about this amp :thinking:
 
Jun 17, 2020 at 5:30 PM Post #3,913 of 25,919
have you tried the TCs out of the Bakoon yet? If so is it as great a pairing as the Bakoon with the Susvaras? You got me curious about this amp :thinking:

I have not, actually I have only tried TC at CanJam, never at home. Honestly everyday I wake up thinking, is today the day I buy a TC? It's only a matter of impulse now.. :thinking:
 
Jun 17, 2020 at 5:33 PM Post #3,914 of 25,919
I have not, actually I have only tried TC at CanJam, never at home. Honestly everyday I wake up thinking, is today the day I buy a TC? It's only a matter of impulse now.. :thinking:
If/when you buy them I’d say there is a good chance you’ll be changing your profile picture :L3000:
 
Jun 17, 2020 at 5:33 PM Post #3,915 of 25,919
The tech is getting so good these days, that we may be splitting hairs. Generally speaking a measurable difference used to equate to a perceivable difference to the ears. With the technology is getting soooo good and so much more affordable, I think the law of diminishing returns is exaggerated even more.

I have a THX 789 and most agree it is a great value. I'm quite certain I can hear a small difference (difference nonetheless) with the Bakoon Amp 13-R which is way way way more expensive.

95% of the causal listeners probably would not know or care about the differences between the two. I paid a premium not only for the perceivable difference but because I love the industrial look and design of the Bakoon Amp-13R, its build quality, its simplicity, high power and versatility (HPA and speaker amp) in a minimal footprint. Also, since I have $6K USD headphones, a $6K HPA isn't such a stretch.

The latest value on the block is supposedly the Topping A90 - rave reviews. Sandro just released a video and said it beats out his Bechmark HPA4 in many categories at a fraction of the price.

Since I am curious, I ordered one and will see if there are any perceivable differences between it and the Bakoon AMP-13R with the Susvara.

For pleasure listening, if a measurable difference is not perceivable, then its only value is a psychological. You feel better because it measures better even though you can't really hear it.
 

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