[SilverEars]

560 is too soft and mellow for classical listening though

That's the difference between the two. Sundara is more aggressive of the two. I noticed HE560 has tad softer bass, but both has about the same level of impact and volume, with Sundara's being on the harder side, tight and quicker.

 

[czy6412]

That's the difference between the two. Sundara is more aggressive of the two. I noticed HE560 has tad softer bass, but both has about the same level of impact and volume, with Sundara's being on the harder side, tight and quicker.

Yup, it is just difference, not better

 

[Hi-Fi-Apricity]

Looking at the pictures of the Sundara I am happy to see the yolk seems to be metal. Using plastic on stress points was such a bad idea to begin with that I dont even know how to feel. Like on the 400S for the price point a plastic yolk is fine, but when the same horrible plastic was used on say the HE560 retailing originally for upwards of 800USD its a major problem. I think hifiman is moving in the right direction here. Does the Sundara still have the upper mid dryness as most of the Hifiman lineup? Was my main complaint with my HE-560 was the dryness so I would like to know if they remeded that

 

[SilverEars]

Looking at the pictures of the Sundara I am happy to see the yolk seems to be metal. Using plastic on stress points was such a bad idea to begin with that I dont even know how to feel. Like on the 400S for the price point a plastic yolk is fine, but when the same horrible plastic was used on say the HE560 retailing originally for upwards of 800USD its a major problem. I think hifiman is moving in the right direction here. Does the Sundara still have the upper mid dryness as most of the Hifiman lineup? Was my main complaint with my HE-560 was the dryness so I would like to know if they remeded that

I don't understand what you mean by upper-mid dryness. You mean lacking warmth? HE-560 is slightly warmer in tonality. You can say Sundara is dryer in a way. Sundara is tight, quick, snappy. Not loose at all. I think tight goes toward the dry side, and loose goes toward the opposite, usually loose means more harmonics as well.

 

[TheoS53]

When people say neutral, it doesn't tell you enough about decay, harmonics of the sound, the definition of sounds.

For something like classical, you want natural and realism, you want tonality to have some body, harmonics, and more of a gradual shades when sounds are defined.

.

One fact that we must all comprehend and learn to accept is that the headphones are simply the last link in a long chain. When we say that something sounds "neutral", what do we base that on? Were any of us in the recording booth or live setting when the sound was captured, or do we base it on how natural it sounds based on the sounds we've been exposed to throughout our lives? The fact of the matter is that, when we judge whether something sounds neutral or not, are we not entirely basing that on the assumption that the original sound was recorded perfectly and all other processes between the recording and final playback have also been done absolutely perfectly?

Let's say that everything has been done perfectly, wouldn't a set of headphones that measure neutral in fact be the most detailed set of cans? Surely, it's impossible for something to sound more detailed than what it sounds like naturally (after all, isn't it that realism that we're trying to capture and playback?). In this case any set of headphones that don't sound neutral would, by definition, be distorting the sound and thus be less detailed.

 

[Hi-Fi-Apricity]

I don't understand what you mean by upper-mid dryness. You mean lacking warmth? HE-560 is slightly warmer in tonality. You can say Sundara is dryer in a way. Sundara is tight, quick, snappy. Not loose at all. I think tight goes toward the dry side, and loose goes toward the opposite, usually loose means more harmonics as well.

Ah yea I just mean that the HE560 doesnt have as much fowardness and lush qualites I like in vocals. Female vocals on the HE560 sound sorta stale and flat to me compared to say the AD series from Audio-Technica or any of the STAX lambdas. I guess what im asking is weather the vocals are more foward and fuller especially female vocals on the Sundara compared to the HE560 and HE400I?

 

[SilverEars]

Ah yea I just mean that the HE560 doesnt have as much fowardness and lush qualites I like in vocals. Female vocals on the HE560 sound sorta stale and flat to me compared to say the AD series from Audio-Technica or any of the STAX lambdas. I guess what im asking is weather the vocals are more foward and fuller especially female vocals on the Sundara compared to the HE560 and HE400I?

Sundara is pretty similar with vocals in the 2k area will sound recessed, and 3-5k area will sound forward in comparison. Vocals sounding recessed is dependent on what part of the mids to upper mids the vocals have the energy. Certain vocals are further up like in the 3-5k, and certain vocals are lower in the 2k. If the vocals lands in the 2k, it will sound recessed no matter what type of vocals, male or female.

There might be some confusion on what area we are referring to in the spectrum, and where the vocals will land which depends on the recording.

 

[soal]

HE-560 or Sundara for rock music?

 

[SilverEars]

One fact that we must all comprehend and learn to accept is that the headphones are simply the last link in a long chain. When we say that something sounds "neutral", what do we base that on? Were any of us in the recording booth or live setting when the sound was captured, or do we base it on how natural it sounds based on the sounds we've been exposed to throughout our lives? The fact of the matter is that, when we judge whether something sounds neutral or not, are we not entirely basing that on the assumption that the original sound was recorded perfectly and all other processes between the recording and final playback have also been done absolutely perfectly?

Let's say that everything has been done perfectly, wouldn't a set of headphones that measure neutral in fact be the most detailed set of cans? Surely, it's impossible for something to sound more detailed than what it sounds like naturally (after all, isn't it that realism that we're trying to capture and playback?). In this case any set of headphones that don't sound neutral would, by definition, be distorting the sound and thus be less detailed.

I think the problem is, different recordings put out different emphasis due to who and what they mastered the music with and their taste. Recordings have their own characteristics as do headphones, what frequency emphasis, etc.. I guess neutral is just a statistical in this case, what response works the best with most recordings. And statistics take a lot of data to be comprehensive.

There is still a distinction between tonality, resolvability, and clarity. There are some relationships between with tonality effecting clarity and detail. If the headphone is recessed in parts that pushes articulation or overly warm will sound not so clear. But also, headphone can sound clear but not defined in sounds due to uneven tonality. Also, the driver may not be technically good performing which the sound performance is not refined or doesn't resolve as well.

Neutral doesn't necessarily mean better detail, it just mean the ideal transducer(the neutral one) would place sounds at the correct level in terms of tonality.

 

[TheoS53]

I think the problem is, different recordings put out different emphasis due to who and what they mastered the music with and their taste. Recordings have their own characteristics as do headphones, what frequency emphasis, etc.. I guess neutral is just a statistical in this case, what response works the best with most recordings. And statistics take a lot of data to be comprehensive.

Exactly right. So when any of us evaluate a headphone's ability to "retrieve detail", just what the hell are we basing that on? We don't actually have a reliable reference, do we? The closest we could probably get to hearing what the artists and record label intended for us to hear would be to use the exact same playback equipment as they used to monitor their creation(s).

 

[peterzzz]

I just received my Sundara, on first physical impression I almost instantly returned it. Very poor build for a 500 (EUR in my case) product. The connection between the yoke en headband is cheap plastic and very loose on the left side.

There was slightly more clamping force than I'm comfortable with, but that might get better when the earpads break in, they were quite stiff.

Sound wasn't bad, but I'll let it run for a few days before making any judgement on that.

 

[yaby1979]

Exactly right. So when any of us evaluate a headphone's ability to "retrieve detail", just what the hell are we basing that on? We don't actually have a reliable reference, do we? The closest we could probably get to hearing what the artists and record label intended for us to hear would be to use the exact same playback equipment as they used to monitor their creation(s).

You are absolutely correct. It seems that so many of these folks consider this a 'hobby' and have made the mistake of letting the obsession with Hardware obscure the entire point of this industry which is the reproduction of recorded music. There is No Such Thing as a perfect headphone or loudspeaker for that matter. And what sounds great to one doesn't to the other. When the Obsession with every nuance of sound from any headphone obscures the enjoyment of the Music it might be time for a new 'hobby'.

 

[FredA]

You are absolutely correct. It seems that so many of these folks consider this a 'hobby' and have made the mistake of letting the obsession with Hardware obscure the entire point of this industry which is the reproduction of recorded music. There is No Such Thing as a perfect headphone or loudspeaker for that matter. And what sounds great to one doesn't to the other. When the Obsession with every nuance of sound from any headphone obscures the enjoyment of the Music it might be time for a new 'hobby'.

A lot of pop music out there is tuned for cheap and colored audio setups. This kind of music will sound like crap on the most neutral, best resolved setups.. That is one thing to know. As for jazz and classical, which what i prefer and listen to mainly, a high-fidelity setup is really the way to go. As part of this, the he560 are wonderful. Of course, with any high-end gears, matching is mandatory. That is when experience prooves to be very useful.

 

[FredA]

About the he560, they have what i would call soft dynamics. By this i means the macrodynamics are present and enjoyable, but they don't have as much impact as with other cans. This could be a flaw for some but i see it as a plus because it allows the he560 to be the most fatigue-free headphones i have tried. I really appreciate this characteristic.

This seems to be a different story with the Sundara, as mentioned already. I will go audition the Sundara at some point soon at an audio store nearby.

 

[conquerator2]

It's funny. Well mastered recordings are going to sound good on a wide array of systems while subpar masterings will sound bad. I think it comes down to just how tonally accurate a headphone sounds and how closely that approaches what we consider reference. Many good headphones are different shades of neutral, so this makes it a very personal affair in the end.