[yaby1979]

Planar bass a bit linear. People might think its not hard hitting enough so its underpowered.

It happened with me while listening to he400i. I felt my 2.5 watt amp was not doing the job properly. I was not getting the bass i wanted or am used to.

But planar drivers are also too big at 100 mm +. And heavy as well. Quiet simple to see why it might feel underpowered. We are not looking for some simple sound after all. Ppl want texture, dynamics, impact etc from 5-6 instruments playing at the same time. Would require a lot of juice if you ask me.

Where to start? If you have an amp with a 2.5 watt output and it won't drive the he-400i I would suggest the following . Either this unnamed amp Doesn't output anything near 2.5 watts . Or maybe your headphones are defective . Or maybe none of the above. ( fiction?) But neither the Sundara nor the he-400i require large amounts of current . Or 'juice' as you call it. For Planar Magnetic drivers they sip little juice .

 

[Hifiearspeakers]

H I F I M A N - S U N D A R A - R E V I E W

Hello all.
Got a pair of Sundaras and have been listening to them for a while.
Would like to share my experiences with you, since there are not many proper reviews on the net on them.

Reference units used:
> Sennheiser HD600, HD650, HD800
> Audeze LCD3
> Hifiman HE-4, HE-6, HE1000 V2
> Focal Utopia
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Pros:
+ High(er) sensitivity than previous (older Hifiman) models
+ Improved quality of construction and assembly
+ Much better connectors and cable, and nice storage box
+ Effortless presentation
+ Dynamics and clarity in the low frequency region.
+ Much more coherent across the spectrum than previous Hi-end models (HE1000 v2).
+ Great imaging capabilities.
+ Very laid back midrange response (+)

Cons:
- A "coarse" construction that still feels.... well...cheap (compared to Sennheiser 600/650/660)
- A very audible "shelf-like" low pass response, lacking high frequency extension.
- Lacking clarity (against more expensive units), and thus feeling less "precise"
- Excessively "warm" sounding and rolled-off.
- Very laid back midrange response (-)
- Small earpads (Focuspads) and not very comfortable on slightly bigger ears.

Verdict:
Actually a solid performer, capable of painting an effortless, large, deep and pleasing picture of the sonic event, with almost
no signs of harshness or edge.
Low frequencies exhibit wonderfull solidity and articulation that is unheard of for the price.

Laid back, rolled-off and warm character that will suit many different (hard sounding/grainy) amplifiers.
Its overall performance was surprisingly ever so slightly superior to that of Hifiman HE1000-V2 which sounded a little less homogeneous, a little less balanced and slightly more grainy
across the board.

This could serve as a very good pair of all-round headphones for many, maybe even an end-game headphone for some.
Yes, it is a really that good.

PLEASE: LISTEN FOR YOURSELVES AND DECIDE FOR YOURSELVES.
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------


R E V I E W :
It is apparent that Hifiman is aiming to please reviewers like Tyll Hertsens (who has repeatedly stated that
he favors laid-back treble response) by altering the frequency response and the sonic characteristic of their headphones - which is a real pitty actually.

The airy, shimmering, smooth, utterly transparent and effortless sonic character that Hifiman was famous for in the past is now
gone and been replaced by an equally effortless, but much darker and "veiled" presentation that will undoutedly be more forgiving and more to the liking of reviewers.

The high frequency resolution of the Hifiman headphones was a problem in the past:
Because of this articulation and clarity, they often sounded accentuated and piercing in the highs when coupled to mainstream amps.

However, switching from Hifiman HE-4/HE-6, or even Sennheiser HD800 to the Sundaras made one thing very apparent:
A very obvious shelf-like "drop" of the output level beyond approx 2 kHz (I have no measurements), leading to a somewhat veiled and opaque
presentation that left me at times - much like when I audition Audeze units - longing for more clarity. (This is of course an unfair comparison since the reference units are twice the price).

On Al De Meola's "No Mystery" (World Simfonia album, Tomato/Mesa Bluemoon release) contains tremendous amounts of low-level, wonderfully shimmering,
slightly sibilant cymbals, played and micked in the background, which helps create a hallucinatory ambiance and "air" that is absolutely intoxicating when played on other
reference units - but is unfortunately completely muted and absent through the Sundaras.

The low frequencies feel well extended (again - I have no measurements) and possess solidity and depth that help create a big and deep soundstage which is
superior to that of other reference units (with the exception of HE1000 V2), yet the soundstage lacks clarity and focus that gives a big, but wooly and diffuse picture of
musicians and instruments.

At the end, the warm character of the Sundaras can be both a curse and a blessing.
I must point out that my reference electronics is all Single-Ended with tubed Front-End, and I am sure this rolled-off presentation will be much appreciated on hard-hitting, clear-sounding OP-based, or
push-pull solid state electronics.

As mentioned, I compared it to much more expensive headphones which is unfair.
However, against the similarly priced Sennheiser HD600/650, the Sundaras were hands down, so absolutely superior in every way.

I felt them to be even superior in many ways, to Hifiman HE1000 V2 (which has severe problems in the mids and highs due to its large non-circular membrane - but that's another story).
Hifiman has commendably addressed this shortcoming in the Susvara, but it costs 6000 USD.

In comparison, Sennheiser HD600/650 sounded very grainy and coarse in the midrange and highs, not as resolving and articulated in the lows, and not at all as satisfying as the Sundaras.
I cannot think of any other headphones -->> AT THIS PRICE RANGE <<-- that can match Sundara's qualities.

A good match up would be to bright-sounding Class-A push pull amps/Dacs.

Best of luck to you all.

Thanks for the impressions of the Sundara, but, as an owner of the HEK V2, I have no idea what you’re talking about when you criticize their mids and highs. Not only is there nothing wrong with them, as they sound perfect to my ears, but the HEK Is known to have one of the best timbre of any headphone ever made. And a testimony to how well/tuned it is, is the fact that they have almost no damping material whatsoever. Take off the earpads and see for yourself. In comparison for example, look how much variation in damping is used by Sennheiser’s hd6xx line or any Beyerdynamic ever made. The entire 5xx line all use the same drivers but sound different. The only difference is the damping and whether the housing is open or closed. The 600 and 650 use the same driver but sound different. The 660 and 700 use the same driver but sound different. The 800 and 800S use the same driver but sound different. And all Beyerdynamic 1st gen. Tesla’s are the same driver and 2nd gen. Tesla’s are the same driver but they all sound different.
I honestly cannot name one headphone I’ve ever tried that has less of a need for special tuning and damping than the HEK.

 

[yaby1979]

Here are some measured specs as a point of reference:
https://www.anandtech.com/show/8554/the-iphone-6-review/11

The issue is the wattage is very low, about 25mW at 32 Ohm. Overall volume and headroom are going to suffer with that little power on tap. Putting the 37ohm impedance and 94 db sensitivity into here:
http://www.digizoid.com/headphones-power.html

shows that at "fairly loud" the headphones' required exceeds the output of the iPhone in terms of both wattage and voltage. If you are like me and would never listen at 110db, you might be fine. But, EQ will often lower the overall volume to compensate for changes to the FR, which means that you will be turning up the volume and thus using more power for the same level of volume. Then, there are issues like compression due to digital volume control, low-ish dynamic range, SNR, and crosstalk. Compare those to the specs of the Fiio A5 at $130:

https://www.head-fi.org/showcase/fiio-a5-portable-headphone-amplifier.21888/reviews

The iPhone doesn't stack up to even a modestly priced dedicated portable amp.

The issue is not wattage because that is an unreliable figure to use in measurement .Irrelevant. I can show you a home amp that puts out 50 watt rms into 8 ohms that is sonically superior in every category to amplifiers that output 300 watts rms. The wattage race means little and I find most of your comments irrelevant. But of course you're welcome to your opinion. Read Ken Rockwell's review and Relevant measurements to become more informed . One place that wattage might be important is for a p.a. system at the local amusement park where sound QUALITY isn't important.

 

[phthora]

The issue is not wattage because that is an unreliable figure to use in measurement .Irrelevant. I can show you a home amp that puts out 50 watt rms into 8 ohms that is sonically superior in every category to amplifiers that output 300 watts rms. The wattage race means little and I find most of your comments irrelevant. But of course you're welcome to your opinion. Read Ken Rockwell's review and Relevant measurements to become more informed . One place that wattage might be important is for a p.a. system at the local amusement park where sound QUALITY isn't important.

While I disagree with you entirely and find your claim specious, it may help to know that the above cited sources also show that the roughly 900 mVrms falls short of the 1.21 Vrms needed to get to the "fairly" loud level of 110db. In other words, the iPhone would fail to drive the Sundara well in terms of wattage and voltage.

 

[franz12]

H I F I M A N - S U N D A R A - R E V I E W

Hello all.
Got a pair of Sundaras and have been listening to them for a while.
Would like to share my experiences with you, since there are not many proper reviews on the net on them.

Reference units used:
> Sennheiser HD600, HD650, HD800
> Audeze LCD3
> Hifiman HE-4, HE-6, HE1000 V2
> Focal Utopia
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Pros:
+ High(er) sensitivity than previous (older Hifiman) models
+ Improved quality of construction and assembly
+ Much better connectors and cable, and nice storage box
+ Effortless presentation
+ Dynamics and clarity in the low frequency region.
+ Much more coherent across the spectrum than previous Hi-end models (HE1000 v2).
+ Great imaging capabilities.
+ Very laid back midrange response (+)

Cons:
- A "coarse" construction that still feels.... well...cheap (compared to Sennheiser 600/650/660)
- A very audible "shelf-like" low pass response, lacking high frequency extension.
- Lacking clarity (against more expensive units), and thus feeling less "precise"
- Excessively "warm" sounding and rolled-off.
- Very laid back midrange response (-)
- Small earpads (Focuspads) and not very comfortable on slightly bigger ears.

Verdict:
Actually a solid performer, capable of painting an effortless, large, deep and pleasing picture of the sonic event, with almost
no signs of harshness or edge.
Low frequencies exhibit wonderfull solidity and articulation that is unheard of for the price.

Laid back, rolled-off and warm character that will suit many different (hard sounding/grainy) amplifiers.
Its overall performance was surprisingly ever so slightly superior to that of Hifiman HE1000-V2 which sounded a little less homogeneous, a little less balanced and slightly more grainy
across the board.

This could serve as a very good pair of all-round headphones for many, maybe even an end-game headphone for some.
Yes, it is a really that good.

PLEASE: LISTEN FOR YOURSELVES AND DECIDE FOR YOURSELVES.
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------


R E V I E W :
It is apparent that Hifiman is aiming to please reviewers like Tyll Hertsens (who has repeatedly stated that
he favors laid-back treble response) by altering the frequency response and the sonic characteristic of their headphones - which is a real pitty actually.

The airy, shimmering, smooth, utterly transparent and effortless sonic character that Hifiman was famous for in the past is now
gone and been replaced by an equally effortless, but much darker and "veiled" presentation that will undoutedly be more forgiving and more to the liking of reviewers.

The high frequency resolution of the Hifiman headphones was a problem in the past:
Because of this articulation and clarity, they often sounded accentuated and piercing in the highs when coupled to mainstream amps.

However, switching from Hifiman HE-4/HE-6, or even Sennheiser HD800 to the Sundaras made one thing very apparent:
A very obvious shelf-like "drop" of the output level beyond approx 2 kHz (I have no measurements), leading to a somewhat veiled and opaque
presentation that left me at times - much like when I audition Audeze units - longing for more clarity. (This is of course an unfair comparison since the reference units are twice the price).

On Al De Meola's "No Mystery" (World Simfonia album, Tomato/Mesa Bluemoon release) contains tremendous amounts of low-level, wonderfully shimmering,
slightly sibilant cymbals, played and micked in the background, which helps create a hallucinatory ambiance and "air" that is absolutely intoxicating when played on other
reference units - but is unfortunately completely muted and absent through the Sundaras.

The low frequencies feel well extended (again - I have no measurements) and possess solidity and depth that help create a big and deep soundstage which is
superior to that of other reference units (with the exception of HE1000 V2), yet the soundstage lacks clarity and focus that gives a big, but wooly and diffuse picture of
musicians and instruments.

At the end, the warm character of the Sundaras can be both a curse and a blessing.
I must point out that my reference electronics is all Single-Ended with tubed Front-End, and I am sure this rolled-off presentation will be much appreciated on hard-hitting, clear-sounding OP-based, or
push-pull solid state electronics.

As mentioned, I compared it to much more expensive headphones which is unfair.
However, against the similarly priced Sennheiser HD600/650, the Sundaras were hands down, so absolutely superior in every way.

I felt them to be even superior in many ways, to Hifiman HE1000 V2 (which has severe problems in the mids and highs due to its large non-circular membrane - but that's another story).
Hifiman has commendably addressed this shortcoming in the Susvara, but it costs 6000 USD.

In comparison, Sennheiser HD600/650 sounded very grainy and coarse in the midrange and highs, not as resolving and articulated in the lows, and not at all as satisfying as the Sundaras.
I cannot think of any other headphones -->> AT THIS PRICE RANGE <<-- that can match Sundara's qualities.

A good match up would be to bright-sounding Class-A push pull amps/Dacs.

Best of luck to you all.

I have no experiences with HEK or HEX. But I would be really surprised if someone claims that Sundara is better than them. It makes me suspect that HEX or HEK are that bad.

Sundara is great and performs its every penny. Still, to my ears, it belongs to the territory of mid-fi. Mid-upper bass bleeds into mids and tonal balances lack realism.

 

[Dystasia]

Low gain also has lower THD and volume pots tend to track channel balance less accurately at lower knob settings. (BTW -- The Magni 3 has a revised volume tracking slope to help push users to turn the volume knob higher to avoid the inherent stereo tracking issues at lower knob settings)...

From Magni 3 spec at Schiit ...
THD: Less than 0.001%, 20Hz-20KHz, at 1V RMS, less than 0.02% at 5V RMS into 32 ohms

Can one hear the difference between the THD numbers-- I doubt it, but, the stereo channel balance tracking ... maybe.

Don't get hung up on the volume knob position when using low gain setting. If you are able to achieve the desired volume at low gain, then all is good (or even better). If not -- switch it to high gain mode.

Thanks a lot. Will do!

 

[Dystasia]

That is a good point, and since the Magni 3 can easily drive the Sundara in low gain mode, you can easily use it if you can hear a difference...

I can't hear the difference and in the end I will leave it in low gain. Don't want to risk having it on high gain and in a very high volume. Thank you guys

 

[Dystasia]

Low gain also has lower THD and volume pots tend to track channel balance less accurately at lower knob settings. (BTW -- The Magni 3 has a revised volume tracking slope to help push users to turn the volume knob higher to avoid the inherent stereo tracking issues at lower knob settings)...

From Magni 3 spec at Schiit ...
THD: Less than 0.001%, 20Hz-20KHz, at 1V RMS, less than 0.02% at 5V RMS into 32 ohms

Can one hear the difference between the THD numbers-- I doubt it, but, the stereo channel balance tracking ... maybe.

Don't get hung up on the volume knob position when using low gain setting. If you are able to achieve the desired volume at low gain, then all is good (or even better). If not -- switch it to high gain mode.

How do you know all that detail about the Magni 3 and its volume knob? Is there a change-log somewhere that I can read?

 

[zodiac1234]

Thanks for the impressions of the Sundara, but, as an owner of the HEK V2, I have no idea what you’re talking about when you criticize their mids and highs. Not only is there nothing wrong with them, as they sound perfect to my ears, but the HEK Is known to have one of the best timbre of any headphone ever made. And a testimony to how well/tuned it is, is the fact that they have almost no damping material whatsoever. Take off the earpads and see for yourself. In comparison for example, look how much variation in damping is used by Sennheiser’s hd6xx line or any Beyerdynamic ever made. The entire 5xx line all use the same drivers but sound different. The only difference is the damping and whether the housing is open or closed. The 600 and 650 use the same driver but sound different. The 660 and 700 use the same driver but sound different. The 800 and 800S use the same driver but sound different. And all Beyerdynamic 1st gen. Tesla’s are the same driver and 2nd gen. Tesla’s are the same driver but they all so1und different.
I honestly cannot name one headphone I’ve ever tried that has less of a need for special tuning and damping than the HEK.

Thank you for your response. The difference even surprised me.

I have compared them for the past month - side by side - hour after hour, with music that I am intimately familiar with.
To my ears, the HE 1000 v2 has a very audible flaw (for the lack of a better word) in the mids and highs. Coupled to reference class electronics it is blatantly obvious.

In the full review, I also mentioned that Sundara is far from optimal. But it sounded more coherent across the spectrum than the HE1000 V2.

That is what I heard. I did not proclaim it to be tho absolute truth - just my opinion.
The very high price of the HE1000V2 also makes it difficult to forgive its flaws.

I do not know how the amount of dampening that you are referring to in a headphone can be a measure of its sound quality.
I also mentioned that it is important to have a careful audition before making a purchase. If you are happy with your HE1000 V2, then that is perfect.

 

[Hifiearspeakers]

Thank you for your response. The difference even surprised me.

I have compared them for the past month - side by side - hour after hour, with music that I am intimately familiar with.
To my ears, the HE 1000 v2 has a very audible flaw (for the lack of a better word) in the mids and highs. Coupled to reference class electronics it is blatantly obvious.

In the full review, I also mentioned that Sundara is far from optimal. But it sounded more coherent across the spectrum than the HE1000 V2.

That is what I heard. I did not proclaim it to be tho absolute truth.
The very high price of the HE1000V2 also makes it difficult to forgive its flaws.

I do not know how the amount of dampening that you are referring to in a headphone can be related to its sound quality.
I also mentioned that it is important to have a careful audition before making a purchase. If you are happy with your HE1000 V2, then that is perfect.

The dampening matters because it is used to fix flaws of the driver like peaks, unwanted resonances, and ringing. If a headphone doesn’t need dampening, then it’s driver is very good and the sound is already natural and pure. That’s all.

 

[zodiac1234]

The dampening matters because it is used to fix flaws of the driver like peaks, unwanted resonances, and ringing. If a headphone doesn’t need dampening, then it’s driver is very good and the sound is already natural and pure. That’s all.

OK, I see what you mean now. Headphone listening is very individual - as everyone's ears has a different transfer curve.
What one experiences as bright might be interpreted as completely neutral for another person.

Hifiman has decided not to use dampening material behind or around their latest line of products.
Sundara doesen't have dampening either.

I own several Hifiman headphones - I really like their products.

 

[vaibhavp]

Where to start? If you have an amp with a 2.5 watt output and it won't drive the he-400i I would suggest the following . Either this unnamed amp Doesn't output anything near 2.5 watts . Or maybe your headphones are defective . Or possibly you've gone deaf from extended listening at absurdly loud volumes .Or maybe none of the above. ( fiction?) But neither the Sundara nor the he-400i require large amounts of current . Or 'juice' as you call it. For Planar Magnetic drivers they sip little juice .

I am a low volume listener. Always reduce the volume as much as i can.

I think i have explained pretty well in post why someone would think they are underdriven. At no point it feels like amp has hp by the neck and wringing every last bit of detail it can like it happens with dynamic drivers.

 

[yaby1979]

I am a low volume listener. Always reduce the volume as much as i can.

I think i have explained pretty well in post why someone would think they are underdriven. At no point it feels like amp has hp by the neck and wringing every last bit of detail it can like it happens with dynamic drivers.

Maybe you have an amp problem because nobody else seems to share your experience with this headphone .

 

[Hifiearspeakers]

OK, I see what you mean now. Headphone listening is very individual - as everyone's ears has a different transfer curve.
What one experiences as bright might be interpreted as completely neutral for another person.

Hifiman has decided not to use dampening material behind or around their latest line of products.
Sundara doesen't have dampening either.

I own several Hifiman headphones - I really like their products.

Me too. I like their sound, but they need to continue to improve their build quality.

 

[vaibhavp]

Maybe you have an amp problem because nobody else seems to share your experience with this headphone .

Its not a problem per se. An explanation why anyone would think they need a powerful amp. I was talking about he400i by the way