[yeboyi]

Dynamic woofers and sub woofers can show increased range of movement (the over dozen that I tested closely) - by a lot, which changes the sound as they "break-in" - louder and deeper. Take it from me, I used to build subwoofers (no vent, vented, dual vented, push/pull), and measured the heck out of them.

Makers of speakers with mylar drivers (basically planars) have recommended since the 1970's that a break-in period is needed.

It's true, that plugging in a new speaker/headphone that may have cost at the limit or beyond the limit of ones budget can, and listening to only that piece for 100 or 200 hours can change ones perception irrespective of any actual change.

I think when you continue to listen to other equipment one owns (I used two recently) in a serial fashion, and only the "new" piece every 10 hours of break-inieces it tends to mitigate any flights fancy re: the new equipment vs known standards vs break-in progress - if any. I'm using my example of the HE-6se, and I believe it was either 3 or 4 changes I found in break-in documented in the main thread here, ending around 90 hours, even though I listened up to 130 hours for any changes.

My prior experience with new Magnepans (I, II, 3.3), Martin-Logan (CLS IIz, Aerius-i) demonstrated break-in - except the 3.3 which didn't really change, maybe it was pre-broken in?

It might be bullsht but Hifiman himself recommends 150 hours of burn in for their planars in their manuals. They are the manufacturer so...

 

[KimCheese]

Anyone here who owns both HE-4xx and the Sundara...? My question is, is it worth getting Sundara if I already have the HE-4XX...?

 

[bagwell359]

Anyone here who owns both HE-4xx and the Sundara...? My question is, is it worth getting Sundara if I already have the HE-4XX...?

No, but I've owned the 4XX for like 3 years, heard the Sundara, and owned six different HFM cans. Advice: sell the 4XX, and buy a used HE-500 for ~$400, or a used/new Ananda depending on your tastes and budget. Sorry, but to me the 4XX is a "fun can", the Sundara is much more solid, just not as good as the other two IMO. Try to listen to all if you can.

 

[bagwell359]

It might be bullsht but Hifiman himself recommends 150 hours of burn in for their planars in their manuals. They are the manufacturer so...

Careful the "objective police" may object! They have before....

 

[descloud]

Dynamic woofers and sub woofers can show increased range of movement (the over dozen that I tested closely) - by a lot, which changes the sound as they "break-in" - louder and deeper. Take it from me, I used to build subwoofers (no vent, vented, dual vented, push/pull), and measured the heck out of them.

Makers of speakers with mylar drivers (basically planars) have recommended since the 1970's that a break-in period is needed.

It's true, that plugging in a new speaker/headphone that may have cost at the limit or beyond the limit of ones budget can, and listening to only that piece for 100 or 200 hours can change ones perception irrespective of any actual change.

I think when you continue to listen to other equipment one owns (I used two recently) in a serial fashion, and only the "new" piece every 10 hours of break-inieces it tends to mitigate any flights fancy re: the new equipment vs known standards vs break-in progress - if any. I'm using my example of the HE-6se, and I believe it was either 3 or 4 changes I found in break-in documented in the main thread here, ending around 90 hours, even though I listened up to 130 hours for any changes.

My prior experience with new Magnepans (I, II, 3.3), Martin-Logan (CLS IIz, Aerius-i) demonstrated break-in - except the 3.3 which didn't really change, maybe it was pre-broken in?

I was really just mentioning headphone drivers, not loud speakers, tower speakers or sub-woofers for that matter. I would think that larger drivers would have a different set of properties that "burn-in" could take effect. From my understanding, a speaker's frequency response measurement can be measured more consistently because the speaker does not keep changing location, so audio frequencies will have a bit more predictable wave guides and can probably present a "burn-in" effect when measured appropriately.

Headphone frequency response measurements on the other hand, is a little bit trickier because the fit, positioning, and earpad changes do affect the audio frequencies traveling in the enclosed space, and not everyone's ears / heads are shaped the same - making measurements trickier for sure. Given that Tyll also presented his findings on it, I am still not convinced that drivers in headphones "burn-in" or change in frequency response the longer you play it. Unless more studies prove otherwise, I still believe the changes you hear from headphone "driver burn-in" is due to our biological tendency to adapt than the physical drivers changing frequency response noticeably in time.

 

[bagwell359]

I was really just mentioning headphone drivers, not loud speakers, tower speakers or sub-woofers for that matter. I would think that larger drivers would have a different set of properties that "burn-in" could take effect. From my understanding, a speaker's frequency response measurement can be measured more consistently because the speaker does not keep changing location, so audio frequencies will have a bit more predictable wave guides and can probably present a "burn-in" effect when measured appropriately.

Headphone frequency response measurements on the other hand, is a little bit trickier because the fit, positioning, and earpad changes do affect the audio frequencies traveling in the enclosed space, and not everyone's ears / heads are shaped the same - making measurements trickier for sure. Given that Tyll also presented his findings on it, I am still not convinced that drivers in headphones "burn-in" or change in frequency response the longer you play it. Unless more studies prove otherwise, I still believe the changes you hear from headphone "driver burn-in" is due to our biological tendency to adapt than the physical drivers changing frequency response noticeably in time.

All things being equal bigger should show more signs of change. But if you think a headphone trying to produce 25 Hz is not working as a sub woofer, I don't know what to tell you. As for mylar 1.75" circular bits of mylar functioning just the same as a Magnepan is in the same boat. Mylar complete with magnets, glue, and aluminum wire or film in a HFM headhone is the same thing as a Magnepan - say the small MMG.

The difference between room speakers and headphones is the volume required - the technology required is largely or totally the same. Measurements and how to take them is the largest issue.

I told you I listened to my then new headphones (HE-6se) over close to two weeks. Only hearing them for :45-:60 minutes 12 times (after 10 hours of unmonitored music) using the same superb recordings each time, surrounded by a :45-:60 minutes on either side by my two best cans at the time using the same recordings. I noted some changes, not earth shattering. Most of the changes were from 50-90 hours, nothing of note after 90, even though I went to 130 hours. Still cable change, pads change, screen off, EQ all made a similar or larger impact. Fuzzor doesn't really work for those that care.

One thing is crystal clear - the stock cable is rubbish, I think any capable O2 free cable that has good air tight connections and will audibly blast that dreck which HFM seems to like besetting their customers with.

 

[rsusid]

80% thinner diaphragm than the HE400i's, kick out around Oct. No clear photo due to the dark-lighted circumstance.

How the bass on these?

 

[descloud]

All things being equal bigger should show more signs of change

I don't disagree with that.

But if you think a headphone trying to produce 25 Hz is not working as a sub woofer, I don't know what to tell you.

That is not what my statement was saying. Nothing in my previous comment indicates that's what I think.

The difference between room speakers and headphones is the volume required - the technology required is largely or totally the same

I partially agree with this.

I told you I listened to my then new headphones (HE-6se) over close to two weeks. Only hearing them for :45-:60 minutes 12 times (after 10 hours of unmonitored music) using the same superb recordings each time, surrounded by a :45-:60 minutes on either side by my two best cans at the time using the same recordings. I noted some changes, not earth shattering

So? No offense to you within this community but as far as I am concerned, you are an individual with your own experiences that I don't blindly trust. I take most comments by individuals with a grain of salt, especially when they try to convince you by saying "take it from me" or "trust me".

I will of course listen to your experiences with how headphone X sounds different with headphone Y, but mostly in terms of comparison with sound differences and probably comfort or amping since you've listened to more of them.

If there are more studies showing an overwhelming evidence that "burn-in" on headphone drivers are prominent and can be shown to have audible effects after X number of hours or so, I'd be more inclined to listen and analyze it myself. As for now, you can trust your ears if you want and I'll camp on which side I want.

Still cable change, pads change, screen off, EQ all made a similar or larger impact

Cable change - to an extent it can have an effect I agree. I also agree with the pads and dampening like the grills and EQ making changes to the sound.

But what I was mentioning previously was about headphone "burn-in", not actions that have proven to be able to change frequency response when directly applied.

One thing is crystal clear - the stock cable is rubbish

Definitely agree with you on this one. That's one of the biggest gripes I have with Hifiman, why can they make excellent sounding headphones but including good quality cables seem to be an afterthought for them.

I'll stop the discussion about burn-in from here on out because this thread is not for that. Let's just stick with focusing on the Sundara

 

[bagwell359]

So? No offense to you within this community but as far as I am concerned, you are an individual with your own experiences that I don't blindly trust. I take most comments by individuals with a grain of salt, especially when they try to convince you by saying "take it from me" or "trust me".

Certainly, I'm just engaging in good natured debating. Well expressed post BTW.

If there are more studies showing an overwhelming evidence that "burn-in" on headphone drivers are prominent and can be shown to have audible effects after X number of hours or so, I'd be more inclined to listen and analyze it myself. As for now, you can trust your ears if you want and I'll camp on which side I want.

Sure, but once the objectavists stake out a position, I notice they seem to move on to something else - so don't hold your breath waiting for some mega instrumented study.

Cable change - to an extent it can have an effect I agree. I also agree with the pads and dampening like the grills and EQ making changes to the sound.

But what I was mentioning previously was about headphone "burn-in", not actions that have proven to be able to change frequency response when directly applied.

What I was trying to get at was that the differences I heard were not "totally improved", "a revolution", etc. just that they fit into the space "recognizable", "repeatable", "useful and gratifying change in such and so spaces" - which is where I place those other changes from pads, etc. Except for the cable switching a couple of times in the first 130 hours of break-in, I didn't change anything else. This debate has made me decide if I can set up a blind test for the two cables (including weight and feel), and have someone pick a random order of play for 20 tests, and see if I can ID them.

I'll stop the discussion about burn-in from here on out because this thread is not for that. Let's just stick with focusing on the Sundara

Very good.

 

[bagwell359]

How the bass on these?

Better bass on the Sundara then the 400i. I would imagine it would handle EQ in the lower bass better too - but with no evidence.

If you do used, HE-500, HE-560 are worth looking into. 560's have multiple versions so I'd advise listening to it. The 500 hasn't been made in 5 years, so there could be an issue related to that.

 

[JamminVMI]

I am not asking if they are planar, I am asking if they are ISODYNAMIC as opposed to ORTHODYNAMIC and whether Sundara is ISODYNAMIC. I would not ask such an ignorant question as you are suggesting

From: https://www.innerfidelity.com/content/how-planar-magnetic-headphones-work

So, in the world of headphones, Orthodynamic, isodynamic, and planar magnetic all mean the same thing. I’ll probably use them somewhat interchangeably here to be sure people Googling for the terms will find the info … but planar magnetic is the correct term.

Nota Bene: Should you disagree with the article author, take it up with him. I don't have a horse in this race.

 

[coletrain104]

From: https://www.innerfidelity.com/content/how-planar-magnetic-headphones-work

So, in the world of headphones, Orthodynamic, isodynamic, and planar magnetic all mean the same thing. I’ll probably use them somewhat interchangeably here to be sure people Googling for the terms will find the info … but planar magnetic is the correct term.

Nota Bene: Should you disagree with the article author, take it up with him. I don't have a horse in this race.

Huh, interesting. I believed my method was how Hifiman themselves referred to it, perhaps I was mistaken. Tyll usually knows what he's talking about. I'll refer to them as single sided and double-sided from now on, thanks for the clarity and source to correct me. It was not my intention to spread misinformation.

 

[yeboyi]

Huh, interesting. I believed my method was how Hifiman themselves referred to it, perhaps I was mistaken. Tyll usually knows what he's talking about. I'll refer to them as single sided and double-sided from now on, thanks for the clarity and source to correct me. It was not my intention to spread misinformation.

If i remember correctly they use bigger and double sided magnets for cheaper headphones. When you go up magnets does not block the sound. That's their selling point. Ananda should have double sided normal magnets, Arya should have double sided but acoustically invisible magnets on front, HE1000 have one sided magnets. I didn't research them up. This is how i remember.

 

[coletrain104]

If i remember correctly they use bigger and double sided magnets for cheaper headphones. When you go up magnets does not block the sound. That's their selling point. Ananda should have double sided normal magnets, Arya should have double sided but acoustically invisible magnets on front, HE1000 have one sided magnets. I didn't research them up. This is how i remember.

That is definitely the case now. However, HE-6 has the big magnets on both sides, and 400S has a single sided structure. Seems that they are moving towards the double-sided stealth magnets, but Sundara appears to be single-sided. I'll be interested to see if Sundara gets dropped in favor of a mid-tier headphone with a new magnetic structure.

 

[bagwell359]

If i remember correctly they use bigger and double sided magnets for cheaper headphones. When you go up magnets does not block the sound. That's their selling point. Ananda should have double sided normal magnets, Arya should have double sided but acoustically invisible magnets on front, HE1000 have one sided magnets. I didn't research them up. This is how i remember.

Double asymetric magnets debuted with the HEK V1 in the HFM line. Probably the Ananda is the same.

It's clear that the HE-6 and HE-500 had issues with large strips of magnets on the ear side (fuzzor mods attempted to fix this). Even the remake of the HE-6 - the HE-6se has much narrower magnets on the ear side, which the fuzzor mod made very little or no change with (in my experience). The HE-5se has similar thinner magent structure (and fuzzor didn't work with that either) than the HE-500/HE5LE/HE-5.

The HEKse and Susuvara have the so called "invisible stealth magnets".