[doctorjazz]

that's a convenient argument for believing in fanciful things that science hasn't got around to debunking yet

Not going to go there, if you believe that, fine!

 

[up late]

*chuckles*

 

[JaZZ]

was under the impression that sound stage is an illusion arising from our own perception. it can't be measured or quantified afaik. our brains can be tricked into making us perceive things that aren't really there aurally and visually. which is different from wanting to believe in things that aren't really there.

 
If it were just «an illusion arising from our own perception», it would still be a real phenomenon (like e.g. some optical illusions) good enough to enhance the listening pleasure and/or to simulate realism. But my theory is that a larger or more realistic soundstage – even with headphones and even IEMs – can also be the product of higher signal accuracy, in that spatial cues are more clearly perceivable, such as the difference between near sound sources (relatively dry) and far sound sound sources (relatively reverberative) or the time delay between left and right ear in AB stereophony.

 

[Wildcatsare1]

Doc, that's the difference between practicing in the health sciences and other scientists who live in the lab. Unless they can quantify it, then it doesn't exist, no matter what your practical experience has been.

If you listen to modern rock, hip hop, EDM, etc., yes, the soundstage is artificial. The flip side is classical, jazz (most not all), even classic rock where you had a real band, performing in real space (still enhanced but not like the recent stuff).

 

[doctorjazz]

There is so much stuff in human perception and experience that is not "quantifiable", I deal with this stuff daily. And, the "science" changes all the time. Reminds me of what a Medical School professor once told us. "Half of what you learn here will be out of date and incorrect, the other half you'll forget". This is why research and medical education is continuous, because even when we think we have "science" behind us, someone does a study that debunks all the previous "facts" we knew. When I started, ulcers were "known" to be from "type A personality", stress. Then someone figured that it was actually from a bacterial infection. Countless things are learned all the time.
I could go into the old wine tasting analogy, people perceive much more than can be measured, scotch preferences, foods (some measurement is possible, but there is something that a formula won't reproduce in cooking). But, I've learned that it's like discussing religion or politics-people come in with certain beliefs, nobody changes their minds, the only outcome is usually anger/hard feelings, which is why I said I didn't want to go there.

 

[money4me247]

  Not taken. Everybody is entitle to his/her own believes and opinions and I respect that.

Good perspective.
 
I will note that I personally did not experience any drastic 'burn-in' effects with the HE-1k (though I also have never experienced a drastic burn-in effect with any other headphones either). I personally think that it is possible for headphones to sound different after some time, but I account that to my brain adjusting to the new sound signature (aka brain-burn-in hahah).
 
Regards to sound stage, I personally think it is most affected by the damping materials used, the size of the earcups, and finally the overall FR curve. I do find that I generally tend to perceive brighter or more airy headphones with more prominent areas in that region of the FR curve to have a larger sound stage when running direct comparisons, but not 100% correlation. Headphones with larger earcups also tend to have bigger sound stages, but also not 100% correlation. Hard to say about sound stage, but I do feel that you can definitely perceive the differences between certain headphones (though not always to the extent that it is described). I've also personally found perceived changes in soundstage & imaging of headphones via dampings/earpad mods as well.
 
The easiest test for people who are skeptical is to get a open pair of headphones with 'good sound stage' and place your hands over the open part of earcups. I have found that to generally give a change in perceived distance of sounds. Does not work with all open headphones though (the PM-1's sound stage for example does sound relatively similar either way - likely due to the way they are designed).
 
cheers

 

[doctorjazz]

Actually, my take on soundstage is unusual on Head-Fi...I don't really perceive headphones having the same kind of realistic stage you sometimes get from a good speaker/stereo system. I do hear width, that is easy, it is the depth part that sometimes I pick up, sometimes not, but it never seems like musicians in a room or on a stage to me. With the HEK you can get the sense that some instrumentalists are "closer" than other ones in the stage, but the perception of room width and depth that some report I don't hear. Could be my hearing, I'm over 60, the part (highs) that likely has to do with that perception goes as you age. So I stay away from detailed perceived impressions of where the back of the room is...

 

[Decoy]

 
wow what a totally non informed ears!  Soundstage is one of the most interesting experience with 2  Ears not with a measure apparatus.....its impossible to discuss with scientist who are not also audiophile or musician... they reduced anything to number on a dial.....Music is not acoustic its consciousness with ears transforming the acoustic

Good luck in this thread

I don't think this is true whatsoever.  To most questions, a scientist will give the most honest answer there is, "We don't know."  And when it comes to all this kind of stuff, e.g. perception of sound, science has very little mapped out.  My brother works in a lab testing visual perception in humans and I love to talk to him about what he is doing.  And it can be very frustrating sometimes because his answer is too often "We don't know."  And as a doctor of mathematics, I can tell you that mathematicians and scientist are not just reducing things to a number on a dial.  I understand that audiophiles get frustrated when their experience is called into question, but this gross misrepresentation and mischaracterization of science is just as wrong what you feel is being done to you.

 

[JaZZ]

  Good perspective.
 
I will note that I personally did not experience any drastic 'burn-in' effects with the HE-1k (though I also have never experienced a drastic burn-in effect with any other headphones either). I personally think that it is possible for headphones to sound different after some time, but I account that to my brain adjusting to the new sound signature (aka brain-burn-in hahah).
 
Regards to sound stage, I personally think it is most affected by the damping materials used, the size of the earcups, and finally the overall FR curve. I do find that I generally tend to perceive brighter or more airy headphones with more prominent areas in that region of the FR curve to have a larger sound stage when running direct comparisons, but not 100% correlation. Headphones with larger earcups also tend to have bigger sound stages, but also not 100% correlation. Hard to say about sound stage, but I do feel that you can definitely perceive the differences between certain headphones (though not always to the extent that it is described). I've also personally found perceived changes in soundstage & imaging of headphones via dampings/earpad mods as well.
 
The easiest test for people who are skeptical is to get a open pair of headphones with 'good sound stage' and place your hands over the open part of earcups. I have found that to generally give a change in perceived distance of sounds. Does not work with all open headphones though (the PM-1's sound stage for example does sound relatively similar either way - likely due to the way they are designed).

 
That's what I mean with «accuracy» in the first place: The headphone should add as little reflections as possible, because they would mask the reflections on the recording responsible for the perception of spatial depth. In my speaker(-builder) area I have taken extreme care for minimizing reflections on the speaker cabinet (and within the drivers), e.g. with a layer of velvet around the tweeter dome and some thicker materials for the rest. The perception of sonic depth has benefitted enourmously from that, and I have always asked myself why no speaker manufacturer cares for it (the exception being B&W with its Nautilus line-up). Apparently many headphone manufacturers don't care much either, after all the damping mod in the HD 800 covers the same field. Now I hope the inevitable reflections on the HE1000's magnet bars don't do too much harm to accuracy.
 
 

  I don't think this is true whatsoever.  To most questions, a scientist will give the most honest answer there is, "We don't know."  And when it comes to all this kind of stuff, e.g. perception of sound, science has very little mapped out.  My brother works in a lab testing visual perception in humans and I love to talk to him about what he is doing.  And it can be very frustrating sometimes because his answer is too often "We don't know."  And as a doctor of mathematics, I can tell you that mathematicians and scientist are not just reducing things to a number on a dial.  I understand that audiophiles get frustrated when their experience is called into question, but this gross misrepresentation and mischaracterization of science is just as wrong what you feel is being done to you.

 
Most important: We shouldn't mix up scientists with the Science Forum (and its unscientific biased stubbornness).

 

[jibzilla]

Sound stage is related to treble the most. HD800, bright and well extended treble and treble spike, very open sounding and a large sound stage. Lcd, dark and the treble is rolled, intimate sounding. This isn't rocket science. He1k is open and large soundstage but I find the notes a bit more rounded than hd800.  

 

[JaZZ]

  Sound stage is related to treble the most. HD800, bright and well extended treble and treble spike, very open sounding and a large sound stage. Lcd, dark and the treble is rolled, intimate sounding. This isn't rocket science. He1k is open and large soundstage but I find the notes a bit more rounded than hd800.  

 
So Grados have a large soundstage? The above is too simplicistic for me. Also, you seem to forget the HD 800's angled drivers which at least help with a more realistic soundstage – this with the help of increased involvement of the pinna and its decoding of spatial cues.
 
Soundstage may not be rocket science, but the skeptics need better arguments than treble.

 

[up late]

If it were just «an illusion arising from our own perception», it would still be a real phenomenon (like e.g. some optical illusions) good enough to enhance the listening pleasure and/or to simulate realism. But my theory is that a larger or more realistic soundstage – even with headphones and even IEMs – can also be the product of higher signal accuracy, in that spatial cues are more clearly perceivable, such as the difference between near sound sources (relatively dry) and far sound sound sources (relatively reverberative) or the time delay between left and right ear in AB stereophony.

the phenomenon is an illusion but it can be a convincing one. it's a consequence of our brains trying to make sense of external stimuli.

 

[DreamKing]

   
That's what I mean with «accuracy» in the first place: The headphone should add as little reflections as possible, because they would mask the reflections on the recording responsible for the perception of spatial depth. In my speaker(-builder) area I have taken extreme care for minimizing reflections on the speaker cabinet (and within the drivers), e.g. with a layer of velvet around the tweeter dome and some thicker materials for the rest. The perception of sonic depth has benefitted enourmously from that, and I have always asked myself why no speaker manufacturer cares for it (the exception being B&W with its Nautilus line-up). Apparently many headphone manufacturers don't care much either, after all the damping mod in the HD 800 covers the same field. Now I hope the inevitable reflections on the HE1000's magnet bars don't do too much harm to accuracy.
 
 
 
Most important: We shouldn't mix up scientists with the Science Forum (and its unscientific biased stubbornness).

 
 
info is all here http://hifiman.com/he1000/ 
 
Before claiming it's inevitable, might read up on the tech first. Hifiman worked hard on a solution. They call it "window shade" or before that "blinds grill", it's their patented driver protection that cancels driver protection. I haven't seen anyone even attempting to introduce dampening material to specifically cancel reflections in the HE-1000's drivers yet -- in the unlikelihood that there is any chance they would be audibly present or problematic -- so to it's a good sign. Haven't seen anyone mentioning rattling or weird soundstage issues (basically anything having to do with the negative effects of reflections). Don't know if jerg said anything about attempting mods on it either, whatever they might be for (or at least I haven't seen anything). I've seen people changing pads but that's light. 

 

[jerg]

   
 
info is all here http://hifiman.com/he1000/ 
 
Before claiming it's inevitable, might read up on the tech first. Hifiman worked hard on a solution. They call it "window shade" or before that "blinds grill", it's their patented driver protection that cancels driver protection. I haven't seen anyone even attempting to introduce dampening material to cancel reflections in the HE-1000's drivers yet -- in the unlikelihood that there is any chance they would be audibly present or problematic -- so to it's a good sign. Haven't seen anyone mentioning weird soundstage issues or rattling (basically anything having to do with the negative effects of reflections). Don't know if jerg said anything about attempting mods on it either, whatever they might be for (or at least I haven't seen anything). I've seen people changing pads but that's light. 

I won't confirm or deny that I've tried invasive modding, what I can say is the HE1K drivers have a lot of very exposed areas and modding directly on the magnets is very risky. Something akin to the fuzzor mod (which folks have taken up for HE500 and HE6s) may be dumb to try on HE1K. Instead, more umbrella-like approaches like shelf liner may be the way to go.

 

[richard51]

was under the impression that sound stage is an illusion arising from our own perception. it can't be measured or quantified afaik. our brains can be tricked into making us perceive things that aren't really there aurally and visually, which is different from wanting to believe in things that aren't really there.

an illusion in consciousness is more real than a so call  "reality" without consciousness or independant of all consciousness... Heisenberg meet Bouddha