auricgoldfinger
500+ Head-Fier
The cable isn't big or heavy. It's lighter than my 16-wire copper and easier to manage, so in that sense it's better to have hanging off your headphones.
Here is a comparison. The silver cable is on the right.
Hifiman HE1000 Planar Dynamic Headphone
The cable isn't big or heavy. It's lighter than my 16-wire copper and easier to manage, so in that sense it's better to have hanging off your headphones.
Here is a comparison. The silver cable is on the right.
Whazzzup
Headphoneus Supremus
the lower the awg does not mean that it will sound better per se. 12 may in fact provide more resistance or less conductivity that a higher gauge. Im not saying that 12 isn't fine but under longer lengths is something to consider. Concerning type 6 litz, yes you better have a cable artisan construct the cable, as peter is at DHC.
personally i have no skin in this cable game and have no knowledge of said direct comparison. Except that type 6 litz construction takes several parameters into consideration, also concerning the pure silver concentration.
sorry if i helped derail this thread, but yes I'm sure there are many ways to skin the cable cat as it were, absolutes are friendly but may not be reliable.
personally i have no skin in this cable game and have no knowledge of said direct comparison. Except that type 6 litz construction takes several parameters into consideration, also concerning the pure silver concentration.
sorry if i helped derail this thread, but yes I'm sure there are many ways to skin the cable cat as it were, absolutes are friendly but may not be reliable.
tuna47
500+ Head-Fier
I use the juterheim with the mojo as a pass through dac sounds great anyone use the same system
Does anyone live in South Florida so we can compare equipment
Does anyone live in South Florida so we can compare equipment
Yes, I agree and prefer the solid core..
the Litz type cables expand upon Original Litz type winding with complexities in materials and winding configurations and they also mix silver with copper or gold, or even have plated and mixed stuff...
All going crazy to soak your wallet.
I read the Litz winding was originally created to suppress problems in long runs of cable.
Interconnects used in setups do not have such issues, being so short.
But headphone cable can get long enough to be affected by all these different type windings.
For example,
After hearing Fancy type designs such as the all copper, OR all silver version of a Draug2 cable,
They both imparted a slightly accentuated ambience in the treble region, not in terms of brighter ,
But instead in terms of top end "air".
Yet I still prefer my solid core as it is a clear and focused uniform presentation.
Gavin C4
Member of the Trade: Hercules Audio
Hey there, I am planning to get Lavricable silver cable for my HE1000. I would like to ask is there any major difference between 8 cores and 12 core silver?
Toxic Silver Widow 22 V2 / HEK V2 mini review
Introduction:
There's so many boutique cable makers to choose from! Last year I narrowed my search by going for a local UK one, ending up with the Toxic Silver Poison 26 awg cable for my "transportable" rig Sen HD600's, and I was delighted with the results of this thin-ish silver-with-a-bit-of-gold cable. So I returned to Toxic when looking for a more substantial cable for my main rig Hifiman HEK V2.
At Toxic's top end, the choice was between the litz silver-with-a-bit-of-gold Silver Widow 22 or 24 awg, or pure silver litz Hydra 22 or 18 awg. I felt the Hydra 18 would be too heavy for me, so it was finally between the Hydra 22 or SW 22. These were both just about the same price, £360 - £375 for 6 feet, so the decision was based solely on SQ. Now, some will know that adding even a small amount of gold to silver will proportionally significantly increase resistance, which in theory is not a good thing. But I go by the end results rather than technical specs, so I went along with Frank of Toxic's recommendations based on my brief, which in short was: no change in tonality, with more clarity and detail, without any hint of harshness. Frank recommended the SW to match my brief. I'm told the Hydra has potentially even more detail, but a leaner bass, so probably better suited to darker type headphones.
Then I had to wait for weeks and weeks and then more weeks (at least 12 in the end). It's just how it is - the website does warn about this. The good news is that during this wait, Toxic upgraded their SW to V2 status, which primarily was to make it more flexible. This turned out to be a good thing.
Unboxing and First impressions:
There’s no point in doing an Unboxing video unless you enjoy looking at Jiffy bags, but the cable itself looks gorgeous – and I'm not usually bothered by cable looks - all these naked silver intertwined cables look much the same to me. But this one is rather different:
Firstly, its insulation is much thinner than that of the Silver Poison, and almost disappears, giving the impression that you're looking at pure metal.
Secondly, its got a darker hue to it, which along with the litz construction gives a "vintage silver" appearance, rather like a Victorian silver necklace. You can see this effect in the final photo comparing SW to SP.
Thirdly, it really is very flexible, almost slinky, with a soft feel to the insulation. There is an option of an external black sheath, but I didn't go for that.
I did a weight comparison SW against the rubbery stock cable. Because my SW was 0.5 metres longer than the 3m stock, to be fair I weighed the stock cable without its big plug (result was 55 grams) and the SW not including 0.5m and big plug (result 95g). So the SW is almost twice the weight of the stock cable, but this merely reflects how featherweight the stock cable is. On its own, the SW does not feel heavy and is totally not cumbersome.
Sound Quality:
When I first heard the SW in my system, I had to check that I hadn't accidently turned the volume up a couple of dbs (I hadn't). Everything jumped out with greater dynamics and clarity. This
was from cold. I'm an impatient man, so I hate the idea of burn-in, but I've noticed it before, so I reluctantly left my system running over several nights before making final judgements. Now, whether it was cable burn-in or brain burn-in, I did feel that the SW did change up and down slightly over time. I didn't set a stopwatch to this, so my timings are extremely vague, but I reckon it took in the region of 200-300 hours to get to a point where one evening I went "Wow, this is it!".
In short, absolutely everything was better and absolutely nothing was worse. Any parameter you can think of. I listened mostly to off-mainstream female singer/songwriter types, but also to other genres including classical. It didn't matter if the recording was good/bad/bright/dull, they all benefited from the greater clarity, focus, detail and dynamics. And the increased levels of fine detail improved depth perception as well as countless examples of hearing little details I've never noticed before. Made it more like a live performance and less like background music. The overall level of improvement was easily the match for, say, a DAC or Amp upgrade.
Tonally, in some ways there was not much difference versus stock, but there were 3 characteristics that appeared to indirectly affect tonal perception:
Firstly, despite (or maybe because of) the extra fine detail, there was a slight reduction in upper frequency glare and hash that made brighter/congested recordings more pleasant to listen to.
Secondly, the extra clarity and dymamics increased the “presence” of recordings that already have high presence (e.g. closely miked female vocals with lots of reverb). This greater “presence” can sometimes come across as brighter. If this sounds partially contradictory to the 1st point then that’s because it is. Bright recordings never felt artificially smoothed down - they remained bright but in a better way.
Thirdly, in some ways the most impressive change: Bass appeared in places I previously had not known even existed. This gave the whole presentation a weightier foundation, which in turn increased the height of soundstage (I'm not sure why I always seem to hear bass notes at the bottom and high notes at the top of a soundstage). There, wasn’t any more bass in volume, it was just, tighter, with more texture and more precisely located.
I find that rapid switch A/B testing has its limitations. I did a bit of that too, but I much prefer the long term listening approach. After getting used to the SW sound for a few weeks, when I switched back to the stock cable, my first impression was that I must have accidently turned the volume down a couple of dbs (I hadn't). The whole soundstage, but particularly height and depth collapsed. And the bass became more of a one-note thud. My second impression was that the stock cable sounded not so bad on its own terms. A bit flat, bland, “thick” and uninvolving maybe, but pleasant and balanced enough - it didn't suddenly sound terrible. But then as the minutes went on, more and more I felt disconnected from the musical performance, and it wasn't long before I was compelled to switch the SW back in. Funny how you can be perfectly satisfied with any component - until you hear something better, and from then become utterly dissatisfied with the original.
Caveats:
As always, YMMV. My system is basically: Roon on W10 laptop to microRendu to DAVE DAC directly driving the headphones. With a touch of EQ to tame HEK’s lower treble peak, and DAVE’s cross-feed which I find obligatory for the HEK. The low-rent source could obviously be improved (I'm working on that), but the mR and a few other tweaks work wonders to give a surprisingly detailed and dynamic sound (compared to dedicated servers I've heard), but its not quite perfect yet. I could do with a touch more analoguey warmth to balance all that clarity. Whilst the SW has given me a big step up in overall performance, it won't cure all ills (no one component can), so I've still got work to do, primarily on the source.
One example relating to the SW’s impressive bass performance: One of my tweaks is a HRS DPX damping plate on my DAVE DAC. This improves bass performance and clarity in a similar way to the SW, albeit the HRS does it in a much more subtle way. But here’s the thing: if I take away that damping plate, the magnitude of bass improvement the SW brings seems that much less impressive. Now, most of you probably don’t have DAVE or a HRS damping plate, so you may not notice how impressive the SW bass is, but you will have other components with different strengths that may highlight different aspects of the SW.
Whilst all recordings benefited from the SW, the better recordings scaled higher, i.e. the difference between best and worst recordings increased. So going from a great recording to a poor one can initially be dissapointing. The trick I've found is to not listen to only good recordings for too long in succession. Mix it up a bit so that you don't get too spoilt.
Rivals:
A 3m (10ft) length of SW 22 costs about £550 plus options. Some rivals mentioned recently in this thread include the Dana Lazuli Reference at near double that price. And the DHC Prion at about 3 times the price of the Reference! That makes the Prion 6 times the price of the SW. Wow! And the Lavri Master Silver which costs less than the SW. I’d love to compare all these, but I’ll probably never get the chance, so I can’t say how any of these compare. What I can say is that in the meantime I’d be happy to stick with the SW indefinitely, so I’ve completely stopped looking for any other cable.
Introduction:
There's so many boutique cable makers to choose from! Last year I narrowed my search by going for a local UK one, ending up with the Toxic Silver Poison 26 awg cable for my "transportable" rig Sen HD600's, and I was delighted with the results of this thin-ish silver-with-a-bit-of-gold cable. So I returned to Toxic when looking for a more substantial cable for my main rig Hifiman HEK V2.
At Toxic's top end, the choice was between the litz silver-with-a-bit-of-gold Silver Widow 22 or 24 awg, or pure silver litz Hydra 22 or 18 awg. I felt the Hydra 18 would be too heavy for me, so it was finally between the Hydra 22 or SW 22. These were both just about the same price, £360 - £375 for 6 feet, so the decision was based solely on SQ. Now, some will know that adding even a small amount of gold to silver will proportionally significantly increase resistance, which in theory is not a good thing. But I go by the end results rather than technical specs, so I went along with Frank of Toxic's recommendations based on my brief, which in short was: no change in tonality, with more clarity and detail, without any hint of harshness. Frank recommended the SW to match my brief. I'm told the Hydra has potentially even more detail, but a leaner bass, so probably better suited to darker type headphones.
Then I had to wait for weeks and weeks and then more weeks (at least 12 in the end). It's just how it is - the website does warn about this. The good news is that during this wait, Toxic upgraded their SW to V2 status, which primarily was to make it more flexible. This turned out to be a good thing.
Unboxing and First impressions:
There’s no point in doing an Unboxing video unless you enjoy looking at Jiffy bags, but the cable itself looks gorgeous – and I'm not usually bothered by cable looks - all these naked silver intertwined cables look much the same to me. But this one is rather different:
Firstly, its insulation is much thinner than that of the Silver Poison, and almost disappears, giving the impression that you're looking at pure metal.
Secondly, its got a darker hue to it, which along with the litz construction gives a "vintage silver" appearance, rather like a Victorian silver necklace. You can see this effect in the final photo comparing SW to SP.
Thirdly, it really is very flexible, almost slinky, with a soft feel to the insulation. There is an option of an external black sheath, but I didn't go for that.
I did a weight comparison SW against the rubbery stock cable. Because my SW was 0.5 metres longer than the 3m stock, to be fair I weighed the stock cable without its big plug (result was 55 grams) and the SW not including 0.5m and big plug (result 95g). So the SW is almost twice the weight of the stock cable, but this merely reflects how featherweight the stock cable is. On its own, the SW does not feel heavy and is totally not cumbersome.
Sound Quality:
When I first heard the SW in my system, I had to check that I hadn't accidently turned the volume up a couple of dbs (I hadn't). Everything jumped out with greater dynamics and clarity. This
was from cold. I'm an impatient man, so I hate the idea of burn-in, but I've noticed it before, so I reluctantly left my system running over several nights before making final judgements. Now, whether it was cable burn-in or brain burn-in, I did feel that the SW did change up and down slightly over time. I didn't set a stopwatch to this, so my timings are extremely vague, but I reckon it took in the region of 200-300 hours to get to a point where one evening I went "Wow, this is it!".
In short, absolutely everything was better and absolutely nothing was worse. Any parameter you can think of. I listened mostly to off-mainstream female singer/songwriter types, but also to other genres including classical. It didn't matter if the recording was good/bad/bright/dull, they all benefited from the greater clarity, focus, detail and dynamics. And the increased levels of fine detail improved depth perception as well as countless examples of hearing little details I've never noticed before. Made it more like a live performance and less like background music. The overall level of improvement was easily the match for, say, a DAC or Amp upgrade.
Tonally, in some ways there was not much difference versus stock, but there were 3 characteristics that appeared to indirectly affect tonal perception:
Firstly, despite (or maybe because of) the extra fine detail, there was a slight reduction in upper frequency glare and hash that made brighter/congested recordings more pleasant to listen to.
Secondly, the extra clarity and dymamics increased the “presence” of recordings that already have high presence (e.g. closely miked female vocals with lots of reverb). This greater “presence” can sometimes come across as brighter. If this sounds partially contradictory to the 1st point then that’s because it is. Bright recordings never felt artificially smoothed down - they remained bright but in a better way.
Thirdly, in some ways the most impressive change: Bass appeared in places I previously had not known even existed. This gave the whole presentation a weightier foundation, which in turn increased the height of soundstage (I'm not sure why I always seem to hear bass notes at the bottom and high notes at the top of a soundstage). There, wasn’t any more bass in volume, it was just, tighter, with more texture and more precisely located.
I find that rapid switch A/B testing has its limitations. I did a bit of that too, but I much prefer the long term listening approach. After getting used to the SW sound for a few weeks, when I switched back to the stock cable, my first impression was that I must have accidently turned the volume down a couple of dbs (I hadn't). The whole soundstage, but particularly height and depth collapsed. And the bass became more of a one-note thud. My second impression was that the stock cable sounded not so bad on its own terms. A bit flat, bland, “thick” and uninvolving maybe, but pleasant and balanced enough - it didn't suddenly sound terrible. But then as the minutes went on, more and more I felt disconnected from the musical performance, and it wasn't long before I was compelled to switch the SW back in. Funny how you can be perfectly satisfied with any component - until you hear something better, and from then become utterly dissatisfied with the original.
Caveats:
As always, YMMV. My system is basically: Roon on W10 laptop to microRendu to DAVE DAC directly driving the headphones. With a touch of EQ to tame HEK’s lower treble peak, and DAVE’s cross-feed which I find obligatory for the HEK. The low-rent source could obviously be improved (I'm working on that), but the mR and a few other tweaks work wonders to give a surprisingly detailed and dynamic sound (compared to dedicated servers I've heard), but its not quite perfect yet. I could do with a touch more analoguey warmth to balance all that clarity. Whilst the SW has given me a big step up in overall performance, it won't cure all ills (no one component can), so I've still got work to do, primarily on the source.
One example relating to the SW’s impressive bass performance: One of my tweaks is a HRS DPX damping plate on my DAVE DAC. This improves bass performance and clarity in a similar way to the SW, albeit the HRS does it in a much more subtle way. But here’s the thing: if I take away that damping plate, the magnitude of bass improvement the SW brings seems that much less impressive. Now, most of you probably don’t have DAVE or a HRS damping plate, so you may not notice how impressive the SW bass is, but you will have other components with different strengths that may highlight different aspects of the SW.
Whilst all recordings benefited from the SW, the better recordings scaled higher, i.e. the difference between best and worst recordings increased. So going from a great recording to a poor one can initially be dissapointing. The trick I've found is to not listen to only good recordings for too long in succession. Mix it up a bit so that you don't get too spoilt.
Rivals:
A 3m (10ft) length of SW 22 costs about £550 plus options. Some rivals mentioned recently in this thread include the Dana Lazuli Reference at near double that price. And the DHC Prion at about 3 times the price of the Reference! That makes the Prion 6 times the price of the SW. Wow! And the Lavri Master Silver which costs less than the SW. I’d love to compare all these, but I’ll probably never get the chance, so I can’t say how any of these compare. What I can say is that in the meantime I’d be happy to stick with the SW indefinitely, so I’ve completely stopped looking for any other cable.
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mandrake50
Headphoneus Supremus
- Joined
- Aug 13, 2007
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WOW, this has turned into a cable review thread. Don't take this wrong. I have found the reading educational and entertaining. In some way it has made me sad. I will never spend $500 to a few thousand dollars for any wires. No matter the beauty, craftsmanship, nor claimed sonic benefits. But I can sort of listen vicariously through the writings of others and the pictures.
But, it sure would be refreshing to see someone write about the headphones.
But, it sure would be refreshing to see someone write about the headphones.
auricgoldfinger
500+ Head-Fier
There are 600+ pages of writing about the headphones on this thread alone. There is also another HE 1000 thread with a few hundred pages. Plenty there for you to digest.
mandrake50
Headphoneus Supremus
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I have read them all. Ever since the inception of both. Thanks for the tip. Though the condescension is not valued.
But that changes nothing for me. The fact remains, it is a thread about the HE1000. Amazingly (I guess) this is what I like to read when I come here.
Now I am not a moderator, but hopefully I can offer my thoughts without ruffling any feathers.
But that changes nothing for me. The fact remains, it is a thread about the HE1000. Amazingly (I guess) this is what I like to read when I come here.
Now I am not a moderator, but hopefully I can offer my thoughts without ruffling any feathers.
auricgoldfinger
500+ Head-Fier
I apologize if I came across as condescending, and you certainly didn't ruffle any feathers. All I really meant to suggest was that this is an old thread, and for the most part, no one has anything particularly new or interesting to discuss about the headphones themselves.
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Everything is a system...you can't just listen to headphones (or speakers or any other piece of gear that's not a boombox). You hear the effects of the source, the cables used, the amp, the power supply and power cords (I know some will take issue with some of these). Matching/compatibility is key to getting good sound, so I'm interested in associated components (don't like the enclosed HEK cables).
mandrake50
Headphoneus Supremus
- Joined
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No harm...no fowl. You are likely right. Still I can hope... and bump.
As I said, $500 to several thousand dollar cables hold no interest for me. . I will never be able to justify the cost. Apparently that is not the case for many here.
So if that is all there is to discuss... well it is what it is.
I would still love to hear about gear matching (sure that can be cables too), mods... music that makes them shine... stuff that I may actually use.
Yeah.. it's all about me!
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These are fair points mandrake50, and I was in two minds whether to post my cable review here or on the Toxic thread, or even in a separate review thread.
I chose to post it in the HEK thread for reasons similar to doctorjazz's "everything is a system" comments.
Also, I could have saved myself a couple of hours (and all readers a couple of minutes) had I written a single sentence along the lines of "The Silver Widow is simply the bestest cable in the world! Ever!". But I don't think that would have been of much use to most readers. So I tried to put in enough context about the rest of my system and situation to gives readers at least a fighting chance of relating my impressions to their own system and preferences.
Actually, I consider my review to be more about the HEK, and its potential for scalability, than about the Silver Widow cable - I'm sure most of the rival cables mentioned here could do a similar job to a lesser or greater extent.
I'm more interested to see how far the HEK can go with all sorts of system improvements - and ultimately whether my emerging Dynamics rig can replace my TOTL Electrostatics rig (as per my "Downsizing exercise" posts).
So far, I'm finding the HEK V2 to be extremely scalable (implying it's highly transparent) and I have not yet come across any diminishing returns.
I can quite understand anyone who doesn't think it's worth spending big buck on cables (I was than man once). But, based on my experiences so far, if you've spent $3k on a set of headphones, then you are setting your aspirations seriously short if you don't also consider a cable upgrade. This isn't about agonising over tiny details that may or may not even exist. It's about getting a significantly superior headphone!
The fact that it could also be an infinitely deep and expensive rabbit hole is another matter entirely,
I chose to post it in the HEK thread for reasons similar to doctorjazz's "everything is a system" comments.
Also, I could have saved myself a couple of hours (and all readers a couple of minutes) had I written a single sentence along the lines of "The Silver Widow is simply the bestest cable in the world! Ever!". But I don't think that would have been of much use to most readers. So I tried to put in enough context about the rest of my system and situation to gives readers at least a fighting chance of relating my impressions to their own system and preferences.
Actually, I consider my review to be more about the HEK, and its potential for scalability, than about the Silver Widow cable - I'm sure most of the rival cables mentioned here could do a similar job to a lesser or greater extent.
I'm more interested to see how far the HEK can go with all sorts of system improvements - and ultimately whether my emerging Dynamics rig can replace my TOTL Electrostatics rig (as per my "Downsizing exercise" posts).
So far, I'm finding the HEK V2 to be extremely scalable (implying it's highly transparent) and I have not yet come across any diminishing returns.
I can quite understand anyone who doesn't think it's worth spending big buck on cables (I was than man once). But, based on my experiences so far, if you've spent $3k on a set of headphones, then you are setting your aspirations seriously short if you don't also consider a cable upgrade. This isn't about agonising over tiny details that may or may not even exist. It's about getting a significantly superior headphone!
The fact that it could also be an infinitely deep and expensive rabbit hole is another matter entirely
,
Last edited:
auricgoldfinger
500+ Head-Fier
These are fair points mandrake50, and I was in two minds whether to post my cable review here or on the Toxic thread, or even in a separate review thread.
I chose to post it in the HEK thread for reasons similar to doctorjazz's "everything is a system" comments.
Also, I could have saved myself a couple of hours (and all readers a couple of minutes) had I written a single sentence along the lines of "The Silver Widow is simply the bestest cable in the world! Ever!". But I don't think that would have been of much use to most readers. So I tried to put in enough context about the rest of my system and situation to gives readers at least a fighting chance of relating my impressions to their own system and preferences.
Actually, I consider my review to be more about the HEK, and its potential for scalability, than about the Silver Widow cable - I'm sure most of the rival cables mentioned here could do a similar job to a lesser or greater extent.
I'm more interested to see how far the HEK can go with all sorts of system improvements - and ultimately whether my emerging Dynamics rig can replace my TOTL Electrostatics rig (as per my "Downsizing exercise" posts).
So far, I'm finding the HEK V2 to be exremely scalable (implying it's highly transparent) and I have not yet come across any diminishing returns.
I can quite understand anyone who doesn't think it's worth spending big buck on cables (I was than man once). But, based on my experiences so far, if you've spent $3k on a set of headphones, then you are setting your aspirations seriously short if you don't also consider a cable upgrade. This isn't about agonising over tiny details that may or may not even exist. It's about getting a significantly superior headphone!
The fact that it could also be an infinitely deep and expensive rabbit hole is another matter entirely
I also have found the HEK to be very scalable. I have made numerous improvements to my system, assuming each one would be the last due to diminishing returns. Surprisingly, I have continued finding each upgrade to be worthwhile. The HEK is a very capable headphone.
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